The GGR race, discussion and news

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by picklesandjesse

Would've liked to see a Cape Horn vane on one of the boats. He says they are good for one circumnavigation and no spares needed. But Hydrovanes are great and they teach you to balance the rig too, otherwise they get overpowered.

There is a BIG difference between a vane being guaranteed for a RTW in the tropics and one below the capes. All vanes require you to balance the rig. We had a furling main on our Bristol and it was wonderful for getting the rig balanced for our Monitor. Off the wind we tended to use lots (or full) genoa and very little main.

[er9]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Thanks Gilow. Well said. And Er9's comment just reinforces why it needed to be said.

it was said tongue in cheek because Gilow was being extremely over sensative about Barnakiels use of 'Miss pretty' and blowing it way out of context. it was not used with the slightest sense of being derogatory. but thanks i appreciate you jumping to conclusions *******.

[Snowpetrel]

It really highlights just how well RKJ did when he finally consigned his vane to the deep south of Australia. It had never worked especially well, and he sailed more tham half way around the world with no vane. Part of it was the remarkable self steering properties of Suhaili, the other critical part was the remarkable stubbornness and determination of RKJ.

I would have thought a partial fix for the beaufort issue was to lash the tiller lines directly to the servo rudder under the pivot, much like the aires and monitor do. They would need to lead up to the quarters of the transom and a spinnaker pole could be cut up to lash blocks further out if need be. But in each case of those withdrawn the windvane is only a part of the issue.

It will be interesting to see how the remaining fleet deal with issues. And I am sure the vane problems are going to keep rearing their heads as they get further along the route. I am sure some very creative fixes will be used.

On another note VdH's setup of Matmut is interesting

https://www.flickr.com/photos/162765503@N04/28346130957



Short skinny mast and very heavily roached main, extending well past the backstay as per the dashews ideas seems to be working well for him. Showing that roach is at least as effective mast height.

Also note the very deep third reef. Looks perfect for serious sailing in the Southern ocean. The skinny mast seems like it would cope with a knockdown much better than a bigger section. The furlers seem to be a big advantage down there on those boats.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

....

Also note the very deep third reef.

SVTotem, here on CF, designed my new sails for me and took a similar, though not quite as extreme approach, with a very deep third reef point, much deeper than on the original sails. I felt his logic was sound, once you are reefing to the third reef you are not worried about speed, things have already gone to pot, it's about safety.

On a side note, I have never noticed that system of external loops on tags for the reef points on the leech. (My sails have the conventional cringles.) Is it a common system and does anyone know the philosophy behind it?

[GILow]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Some of you guys are familiar with John S. Letcher's book "Self Steering For Sailing Craft". I wonder how many copies are out with the racers...

Ann, anyone who can follow Letcher's mathematics while bouncing around in a sub 40 footer on the Southern Ocean has my total respect.

I am a trained mathematician, and I struggle with his calculations sitting at my stationary desk with a cup of tea.

Dijkstra is my goto man, and to a lesser degree, Forthmann and Paul Fay, both of whom present their calculations in a refreshing take-it-or-leave it way. I concede there is more academic rigour in Letcher's work, but sometimes I just want the answer given to me nicely wrapped up with a pretty bow.

I suspect I would feel even more so were I on the Southern Ocean with a broken wind vane.

[Snowpetrel]

Listen to Gregor Mcgukin safety satellite call 31/08/18 by Golden Globe Race #np on #SoundCloud
https://soundcloud.com/goldenglobera...te-call-300818

Good chat on Gregors storm tactics. Sounds like he was surfing at 12-14 knots before he deployed the warps. Under a tiny scrap of roller headsail sheeted flat and warps he was down to 5-6 knots. Still getting clobbered by the cross seas but safe enough. 50 odd knots for a 6 hours.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by GILow

SVTotem, here on CF, designed my new sails for me and took a similar, though not quite as extreme approach, with a very deep third reef point, much deeper than on the original sails. I felt his logic was sound, once you are reefing to the third reef you are not worried about speed, things have already gone to pot, it's about safety.

On a side note, I have never noticed that system of external loops on tags for the reef points on the leech. (My sails have the conventional cringles.) Is it a common system and does anyone know the philosophy behind it?

Sounds like a good set of sails. 3 very deep reefs is the setup I like these days, especially with a roller furler on a masthead rig. The furler becomes the fine tune on boatspeed. Those 'soft' cringles are interesting. They take less stength out of the sail than a normal cringle, and are lighter and softer. Chafe might be an issue but they may be using dyneema webbing (small amounts are allowed in sails under the GGR rules).

I would like to know if he plans on using a trysail at all. It would make sense to save wear and tear on the main. I haven't seen a lot of detailed boat nerd level photo's of the boats and gear. It would make a facinating study at the end of the race to see what has lasted and what hasn't.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

That is a masterly piece of understatement..... I have seen boats that have fallen over on hardstands... a better example would have been dropping a boat onto concrete from 12 metres...... and then dropping more concrete on top of it.... we are currently rafted alongside a boat that was 'dumped' SW of Diego Ramirez (sp) last May ... not pretty....

Any details? Sounds interesting.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by GILow

SVTotem, here on CF, designed my new sails for me and took a similar, though not quite as extreme approach, with a very deep third reef point, much deeper than on the original sails. I felt his logic was sound, once you are reefing to the third reef you are not worried about speed, things have already gone to pot, it's about safety.

On a side note, I have never noticed that system of external loops on tags for the reef points on the leech. (My sails have the conventional cringles.) Is it a common system and does anyone know the philosophy behind it?

I have 'dog bones' on the luff cringles..... makes life a lot easier when putting in reefs wth cold hands.....

I can't imagine a sail without 3 reefs... not sure how 'deep' deep is but I use the third reef much more than I use a full main. Previous main had 4 reefs.... never used the fourth one.... although the idea has merit...

I can't imagine going to sea with only one or two reefs available..

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I can't imagine a sail without 3 reefs... not sure how 'deep' deep is but I use the third reef much more than I use a full main. Previous main had 4 reefs.... never used the fourth one.... although the idea has merit...

I can't imagine going to sea with only one or two reefs available..

I've done a few deliveries on boats with only two reefs. Always annoyed me. The steps were too big, and the 2nd reef was never deep enough. But the old sails with three close spaced reefs were just as bad. The 3rd reef was often not deep enough either. And you put a reef in and nothing happened because they were so small. I really like VdH's third reef. It is serously deep, but it means he will seldom have to drop the main.

I did have the thought that he may just have one part reef pendants rather than the normal two part ones. Or prehaps something like a friction ring is seized into the webbing. Another idea would be easily replacable soft shackles.

[Snowpetrel]

https://goo.gl/images/Bir9v6

This shows a Beaufort Lynx setup without the steering bar. Something like this may have worked for PP, Nabil and Francesco?

[carstenb]

A couple of thoughts here.

WE have an old (25-30 years at least) Aries "kick-up" vane, that has functioned without issue or breakdowns - and we're now 1/2 way around the world and have sailed for over two years. Including in some inclement weather

We had a sailmaker put in a very deep third reef in our main before we left and we've never regretted that decision.

Not only for heavy weather, but if you are sailing in very light winds, you need to reef heavily to keep your rig from being shaken to pieces.

[Polux]

I would say that it is all very previsible: one of the most recent designs, a Rustler 36 (from de 80's) is dominating the race as well as the two Frenchmen with really experience in solo racing.

Jean-Luc van den Heede, the sailor with the best racing achievements, looks pretty much unreachable, even at the age of 73, unless he has some health issue.

The only one that was giving him a fight was Philippe Péché, a French racer with experience with solo boats and circumnavigation races and records (on contemporary boats), but he had lost the mast.

The performance of Suailhi is very poor if compared with the ones of these old, but even so, much newer designs showing the benefices of the evolution of yacht design. Only one racer its behind its position (at the time) and most are hugely ahead.

The number of abandons is already big and I bet that at the end the percentage of abandons will be hugely bigger than on a vendee Globe.

So much for the reliability of old designs.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Polux

I would say that it is all very previsible: one of the most recent designs, a Rustler 36 (from de 80's) is dominating the race as well as the two Frenchmen with really experience in solo racing.

Jean-Luc van den Heede, the sailor with the best racing achievements, looks pretty much unreachable, even at the age of 73, unless he has some health issue.

Yeah VdH is setting a blistering pace, it will be hard for the others to catch him unless he has an issue. But both him and Phillipe Petch seemed to have far better weather routing down the south atlantic, and many of their gains can be attributed to cutting the corner, and just getting ahead of a high that trapped a large portion of the fleet. Also remember that a reasonable portion of the fleet are not racing. They are sailing very conservatively to look after the boats for the long road ahead.

The only one that was giving him a fight was Philippe Péché, a French racer with experience with solo boats and circumnavigation races and records (on contemporary boats), but he had lost the mast.

Philipe Peches mast was fine, the only issues he had was a lightweight and new design of windvane that broke, and a lightweight racing tiller that also broke. He carried very limited set of spares to save weight and could not fix them at sea. Most of the vendee guys carry multiple autopilots for good reason. Out of the fleet he was by far the most dedicated to racing, and his limited spares and lightweight, win at all costs ethos didn't work for this race. With no chance of winning he decided it wasn't worth continuing.

The performance of Suailhi is very poor if compared with the ones of these old, but even so, much newer designs showing the benefices of the evolution of yacht design. Only one racer its behind its position (at the time) and most are hugely ahead.

It's interesting to see just how well Ahlibash Tomy is doing in his wooden Suhaili replica. He is a well ahead of Susie's rustler 36, and chasing hot on Uku's tail. It's also important to remember that the real Suhaili left much earlier in the season, had a very poor windvane and no real light air sails.

The number of abandons is already big and I bet that at the end the percentage of abandons will be hugely bigger than on a vendee Globe.

So much for the reliability of old designs.

So far no boat has had any other issues apart from windvanes, electrical problems and crew. Are lost his mast in a capsize, this is pretty common in a capsize or knockdown and no way reflects on the design of the boat. The boat and crew are fine and making there way back to port without assistance. So its a bit of a stretch to say these old low budget boats are unreliable. In fact it seems like they are doing far better than many modern cruisng boats crossing the Atlantic, no rudders have fallen off yet and no one has needed rescue.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by AiniA

There is a BIG difference between a vane being guaranteed for a RTW in the tropics and one below the capes. (...)

If it is guaranteed only for a rtw onboart a DYT ship then the warranty is good for nothing. A scam. A lie.

Let's not demonize the southern route. Mind the equipment is asked to work for some 200 days only. But these failed before they even ENTERED the SO.

A boat sailing a rtw thru the tropics may be under way for years.

If the warranty says rtw and the vanes broke at such an early stage, either these are old/worn out units or else their rtw warranty is humbug.

Cheers,
b.