Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-09-2016, 07:54   #16
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,960
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Of course every additional vessel creates a collision risk...

The proper question (form a moral point of view) is of course if this creates an additional unacceptable risk. The law generally does not require that one eliminates risk, just that one takes enough due diligence to reduce risk to significantly below the risk threshold of a reasonable person. If the makers of the sail drone achieve that I do not have a problem with that.

I have a question: AFAIK it is not mentioned anywhere in the COLREGs that the required "lookout by sight and hearing" needs to be performed by a human being. I think the a case can be made that an automated system that performs as well as a human in situational awareness and collision avoidance is not in conflict with the COLREGs.
If we were unwilling to accept any risk at all which comes with new technology, we would never have any progress.


From what I know about the current generation of robot sailboats, they are not capable of any automated collision avoidance and don't keep anything like what would consider a normal watch.

I can't say whether COLREGS in their present form might be fulfilled with the proper automated systems. But in my opinion that's not really all that important -- they should be changed if they don't already allow it. The main thing is to develop systems which work.

In my opinion there is no question that the future belongs to self-driving cars, trains, etc., etc., so I think this technology is natural, interesting, and useful. I think we should accept some risk in the early days, but the designers should pay attention to the collision avoidance issue, and probably there needs to be some regulation. If it's possible to design a decent automated collision avoidance system without going back to the drawing board for 10 years or incurring a cost of a million dollars per vessel, then I don't actually think it's reasonable for these things to be set loose in the sea creating collision risks.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 08:03   #17
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 19,182
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Hey.. so do the Politicians.. and look how far we've got with them..
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 08:10   #18
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Still Searching for Her
Posts: 3,908
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

These drones have very interesting possibilities for naval warfare.

They could be very stealthy!
Their RADAR signature could be "undetectable" (no metal)
Their heat signature could be "undetectable" (no engine)
Their acoustic signature could be "undetectable" (no engine or prop)
They are very small and could be painted to be hard to see.
They can carry a range of detection devices to be used as "picket duty" remote sensors, or uniquely as sensors that could move towards an enemy location, especially one where capture of any manned vessels must be avoided (Spratley Islands, etc.). Notice the many sensors in the illustration that could be used to locate Chinese submarines in the South China Sea for example.
They can carry a payload of 250 pounds (guest payload shown in the illustration).
They are unmanned, so do not risk the life or capture of a Sailor, SEAL, or Marine.
Their "cover story" for the public could be simply "oceanographic or weather research" device to track wind, weather, and currents.

And, in the days of competition for budget funding for the military services and competition for the best possible recruits, having some "high tech" drones makes a good recruiting tool for the Navy and is keeps the Navy's public image as "with the times" or even "leading edge." This can have great value to the higher ups (top brass).

And they could possibly assist in bathymetric sounding research to create more accurate charts.

In sum, pretty frickin cool as a future naval weapon (hence the DARPA connection).
__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Do you need experienced crew for a long voyage either Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on short notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 08:11   #19
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in the Caribbean
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,411
Images: 25
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Hey.. so do the Politicians.. and look how far we've got with them..
Automated politicians? Oh, we already have them.

__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 08:24   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Astoria, NY
Boat: Sabre 38
Posts: 280
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

I read, in support of a post above, that the main trust of many drones will be to track submarines. Turns out tracking even 1980's diesel electric subs are very difficult when they go on battery power. So these drones will be outfitted with extremely sensitive sensors and whenever they pick up a sub trace, they will follow it and not let it go.

You aren't going to win a COLREG argument against the military. Hopefully the commercial shipping industry is close enough to the matter that they are pushing for safe guards that might also benefit us. No one is going to ask us lowly recreational sailors!


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
1983 Sabre 38cb
My Intro
fallingeggs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 08:41   #21
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Still Searching for Her
Posts: 3,908
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallingeggs View Post
I read, in support of a post above, that the main trust of many drones will be to track submarines. Turns out tracking even 1980's diesel electric subs are very difficult when they go on battery power. So these drones will be outfitted with extremely sensitive sensors and whenever they pick up a sub trace, they will follow it and not let it go.

You aren't going to win a COLREG argument against the military. Hopefully the commercial shipping industry is close enough to the matter that they are pushing for safe guards that might also benefit us. No one is going to ask us lowly recreational sailors!


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
Yes. And the sub would not even know it was being tracked, because it depends on sonar to detect surface vessels.
__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Do you need experienced crew for a long voyage either Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on short notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 09:23   #22
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in the Caribbean
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,411
Images: 25
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Commercial shipping will be automated very soon.

Check Google.
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 09:41   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Astoria, NY
Boat: Sabre 38
Posts: 280
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Commercial shipping will be automated very soon.



Check Google.

True, but they still have an interest in not running over drones (or us).


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
1983 Sabre 38cb
My Intro
fallingeggs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 09:54   #24
Liveaboard Cruiser
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,218
Send a message via Skype™ to SV THIRD DAY
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Rules are for the little people...move along...nothing to see here.
__________________
Rich Boren Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water Makers
Technautics CoolBlue Refrigeration

SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:12   #25
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 7,851
Images: 5
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

I'm amazed that this OP seems to always post fear based topics. To me it's just a bunch of dibble. Then we have the other arm chair speculator but please don't make me go there.
Water seeks it's own level. If drones become a reality then they will be regulated by the powers to be. Just like everything else in our bored lives.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:18   #26
Liveaboard Cruiser
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,218
Send a message via Skype™ to SV THIRD DAY
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Why go after her personally again...the Global cooling thread was closed down due to your personal attacks there...why bring it here? Sheesh...ridiculous...

Ah...but I think we understand better now...some people get a it testy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored Armchairer View Post
Just like everything else in our bored lives.
__________________
Rich Boren Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water Makers
Technautics CoolBlue Refrigeration

SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:30   #27
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in the Caribbean
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,411
Images: 25
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
. Just like everything else in our bored lives.
I am on Weather Watch. I have a right to Arm Chair Speculate Boredly.

__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:57   #28
Registered User
 
varkpilot's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Houston, Texas
Boat: Chris Craft 47 Commander
Posts: 85
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undadar View Post
This sounds like a continuation of the hysteria that the media has created in the public over aviation drones.
"Hysteria that the media has created..." Perhaps in the non-flying community that is true, but as a 20,000 hour pilot, both military and civilian, I tell you those things (aviation drones) are dangerous. See and avoid is a primary pilot responsibility. Human pilots can do that, and we do. Unmanned aircraft? Not so much. I doubt the water-going variety of the UAV will be any better.
__________________
varkpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 11:00   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 80
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Off shoring?!? Off shore is a verb?
__________________
ingrid75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 11:14   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Cebu - but my boat is in Spain
Boat: Cranchi Atlantique 48
Posts: 83
Re: The Drones are here and ignoring regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ingrid75 View Post
Off shoring?!? Off shore is a verb?
Certainly. But it is mostly used in a business context .... as in "your job is being off-shored"...


Sent from my SM-T805 using Tapatalk
__________________

__________________
Zven is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Drones for Cruisers micah719 Marine Electronics 67 24-08-2016 20:25
Bug? OpenCPN ignoring lots of NMEA sentences - help! chris14679 OpenCPN 9 29-04-2014 19:37
Unmanned Drones to Patrol Africa Patient General Sailing Forum 25 02-10-2011 16:01


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.