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Old 24-07-2014, 16:02   #76
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I get the club reference, but not the armchair one as it relates here.
Will you elaborate?
A subject for another thread, much as many books have been written on same subject.

At this point we have a good number of CF threads where some sailors are trying to tell other sailors that some opinions are better than others, that some sailors are armchairs sailor while others are the real thing, etc.

I say well this is a forum. People come and speak. If an opinion is wrong, here we are to help out and share what we know. If a sailor has less experience, here we are to share ours.

To write, to share, to listen, to learn.

An excellent idea, an enlightened solution may come just as well from an inexperienced sailor. Unless we label someone an armachair sailor and their ideas as worse.

I hope this explains my sober mood. It might be I have been reading CF too much, sailing too little!

Cheers,
b.
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Old 24-07-2014, 16:21   #77
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

The video is an eye opener!

You ever wonder how much could be gained if rudder posts were built longer with exits (and possibly another bearing) at the deck level? This is how this was done in older boats until someone decided the shaft going thru the "master cabin" (hahahaha) is unsightly.

And so owners who wanted "all the space" got it. But not for free.

And no flood dam between the rudder post compartment and the main body of the boat??? Why not?

The whole EU 'Ocean Class' is a humbag invented by vested politicians paid by profit seeking manufacturers.

Manufacturers, not boat builders.

b.
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Old 25-07-2014, 01:51   #78
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

For those suggesting cutting the rudder off at the upper stock, well sorry most modern rudders are buoyant, being filled with close cell foam.

Im guessing from the info the rudder was still very much attached to the boat and the tabbing on the upper shelf which supported the upper portion of the stock failed, allowing rapid uncontrolled swinging of the rudder breaking the lower casing where the rudder enters the water, allowing water ingress, no doubt each swing made the situation worse cracking even more of the hull.

The construction of the rudder stock upper support certainly is not the strongest nor safest method of construction, but certainly the cheapest!

The rudder stock support system appears to be badly engineered & has proved to be a dangerous weak point in the hull

My heartfelt sympathy to the owners.

Having suffered rudder loss 400NM from the Azores myself, i can sympathize with them.
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Old 25-07-2014, 02:48   #79
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

We stopped in Spain for a few weeks of sun and fun before continuing on to the Caribbean this year and I was BSing with a local broker and he told me a friend with a Hanse 53 suffered structural failure somewhere offshore at the northern end of South America and the boat sunk.
I think these newer production boats are great for their intended purpose, Med sailing, Caribbean or Mexico, I would buy one myself as they really do offer super value. I also believe they do just fine offshore in the safety of the trade wind belt. Most folks who circumnavigate that I know never experienced sustained winds of over 30 knots so no problem there BUT as soon as you are out of the trades I think you would sleep a lot better with a higher quality boat that hasn't had every last nickel engineered out of it.
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Old 25-07-2014, 05:37   #80
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Re: The Blue Pearl sinking

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I think this is the wrong approach entirely. Rather than carrying a mickey mouse patch for this sort of situation, it would be FAR more useful to beef up the rudder structure so that a patch would never be required. After all, the vast majority of boats' rudders don't fail in this manner, even in severe sea conditions. The engineering isn't so demanding, nor is the shipwright skill needed to accomplish the augmentation. While one is about it, might as well make that aft bulkhead watertight and reduce the chance of sinking even more should rudder damage pop up.

Meanwhile, I too laud this skipper's responses to a deadly situation: well done, mate!

Jim
Jim:

I agree beefing up the rudder post area is the first choice. I was just thinking of something like a rudder bag/sling would be a nice thing to have in case the poo hits the fan with a rudder failure like occurred on Blue Pearl. A reinforced sling/bag that fits over the rudder with appropriate control lines attached might help limit the swing of the rudder post from tearing up the inside of the boat like happened on Blue Pearl. It might also help keep the rudder top tight against the hull limiting water entry. Might not save the boat but, might buy one some more time to sort things out. Might also be helpful in other more common rudder failures where the rudder stock stays intact and the rudder spins around the shaft. Of course you would have to fabricate it before you need it and hopefully you would never need it. Just running the idea up the flagpole.
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Old 25-07-2014, 05:53   #81
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Re: The Blue Pearl sinking

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Jim:

I agree beefing up the rudder post area is the first choice. I was just thinking of something like a rudder bag/sling would be a nice thing to have in case the poo hits the fan with a rudder failure like occurred on Blue Pearl. A reinforced sling/bag that fits over the rudder with appropriate control lines attached might help limit the swing of the rudder post from tearing up the inside of the boat like happened on Blue Pearl. It might also help keep the rudder top tight against the hull limiting water entry. Might not save the boat but, might buy one some more time to sort things out. Might also be helpful in other more common rudder failures where the rudder stock stays intact and the rudder spins around the shaft. Of course you would have to fabricate it before you need it and hopefully you would never need it. Just running the idea up the flagpole.
In theory sounds good but with all the unpredictable waves, forces, and motion I can't even imagine trying to align something under the boat while in heavy seas and not falling off the boat. I could be wrong but, for fun take 10 minutes and rig something up as an experiment. Then go out in moderate conditions and see how frustrated you get trying to get it just right.

I just don't see it being feasible or practical. I mean I have a hard enough time not loosing my balance trying to tie down my main sail in any decent wake. I couldn't imagine while sinking, in large seas, at night, and scared to pieces being able to accomplish putting a jock strap on my rudder.
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Old 25-07-2014, 06:10   #82
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

I would not rely too heavily on anyone onboard capable or willing to go overboard to fit any sort of rescue / emergency sling / device or any sort of 'control lines'.

In most cases, such attempts might end up with not just loss of the boat but also of a life.

Stay on board, press the button.

But first and foremost do not put out to sea in a craft that is not up to the job.

b.
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Old 25-07-2014, 06:26   #83
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Re: The Blue Pearl sinking

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In theory sounds good but with all the unpredictable waves, forces, and motion I can't even imagine trying to align something under the boat while in heavy seas and not falling off the boat. I could be wrong but, for fun take 10 minutes and rig something up as an experiment. Then go out in moderate conditions and see how frustrated you get trying to get it just right.

I just don't see it being feasible or practical. I mean I have a hard enough time not loosing my balance trying to tie down my main sail in any decent wake. I couldn't imagine while sinking, in large seas, at night, and scared to pieces being able to accomplish putting a jock strap on my rudder.
Yeah I agree it might not be that easy in some conditions but, fear is a great motivator. But, you make a good point that practice trying to rig it in various conditions would be a good thing to see how well it would work or what modifications might make it better. Perhaps something like a Galerider drogue with some cinch straps or loops to tighten it up around the rudder.
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Old 25-07-2014, 06:40   #84
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

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I would not rely too heavily on anyone onboard capable or willing to go overboard to fit any sort of rescue / emergency sling / device or any sort of 'control lines'.

In most cases, such attempts might end up with not just loss of the boat but also of a life.

Stay on board, press the button.

But first and foremost do not put out to sea in a craft that is not up to the job.

b.
When the rudder tore out the upper mounting there was nothing to do except bail out. Repair of that sort at sea is not possible in any conditions let alone 40kts. The boat was clearly not up to the conditions but fortunately the crew was. Good job guys.
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Old 25-07-2014, 07:15   #85
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

Now you all are making me want to see if there is a feasible practical way to glass in the compartment my rudder post is in just for peace of mind.

Correct me if I am wrong but I only need to have it be water tight to a bit above the water line and not to the deck right? Obviously factoring in how low it would be sitting with the transom full of water
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Old 25-07-2014, 07:33   #86
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

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(...)

Correct me if I am wrong but I only need to have it be water tight to a bit above the water line and not to the deck right? Obviously factoring in how low it would be sitting with the transom full of water
Yep.

But I would glass way above the point as the boat will not only be sitting deeper but also it will roll and pitch and heave, so the water will slosh about madly.

In fact, I would glass it all the way to the top and seal all cable ports as much as feasible.

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Old 25-07-2014, 07:35   #87
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

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Yep.

But I would glass way above the point as the boat will not only be sitting deeper but also it will roll and pitch and heave, so the water will slosh about madly.

In fact, I would glass it all the way to the top and seal all cable ports as much as feasible.

b.
Good point. I guess that's the same reason the Titanic went down. Didn't seal the water compartments to the top.
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Old 25-07-2014, 07:37   #88
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

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Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
Now you all are making me want to see if there is a feasible practical way to glass in the compartment my rudder post is in just for peace of mind.

Correct me if I am wrong but I only need to have it be water tight to a bit above the water line and not to the deck right? Obviously factoring in how low it would be sitting with the transom full of water

If you are going to go paranoid and glass in the rudder compartment, then you need to made the whole compartment water tight. Since you are worried about the rudder assembly breaking and flooding the boat, what would be the point of only safe for 1/2 a sinking?

BTW - I assume your Catalina 30 has a bolted fin keel, are you going to glass that also? Where would one stop?
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Old 25-07-2014, 07:37   #89
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

Yeah.

Another data point: I had to remove and mount our windvane (standalone rudder unit) in a flat anchorage. Man, it was a job enough. Some swearing, come cuts and we finally got it done. From this experience I think when any swell is running all jobs of this sort may be next to impossible and definitelly a health risk.

That windvane rudder is only some 1/3 the area of our main rudder.

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Old 25-07-2014, 08:07   #90
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Re: The Blue Pearl Sinking

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If you are going to go paranoid and glass in the rudder compartment, then you need to made the whole compartment water tight. Since you are worried about the rudder assembly breaking and flooding the boat, what would be the point of only safe for 1/2 a sinking?

BTW - I assume your Catalina 30 has a bolted fin keel, are you going to glass that also? Where would one stop?
Well that's just it. Right now its just speculating. If I were to do it I would pick what got done on a law of probability. The way I see it a spade rudder is much more likely to become sheared then a keel just due to its support structure. Also if the rudder broke off and was water tight the boat would still float and could be steered with a wind vane or by dragging a drogue. If a keel broke off then I would bank on that baby going over and I am S O L anyways.

To be extra honest, on my current boat on the lake I am not really worried about it. Most of my questions or plans are for our next upgrade on the ocean. I am one of those that plans ahead to a ridiculous degree so when we do upgrade all my ducks are in a row and pre-thought out. Makes the transition much easier and more importantly it keeps me entertained thinking about this stuff while at work.
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