Sunset Lake / Miami Beach Police Ethics Investigation Complete

[Kettlewell]

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”--Benjamin Franklin

[GeoPowers]

After not hearing anything regarding "Anchor Fest", it is nice to have some closure on this. I agree with Tellie and Thinwater, for what it is worth. It's time to move on.

Also, I am of course biased toward boaters' rights, but I don't think the derogitory name-calling to Mr. Karlton in this and the other threads do anything to help sway someone who is new to this debate over to the side of boaters.

Regarding the jetski's- not that it is any of our business, but couldn't the reports be follow-ups on the theft of a single jetski?

Frank

[canucksailor]

Also, taking a sailing class to a specific spot with the captains/instructors prior knowledge that this particular spot is a hot bed of believed harassment is an interesting move as well. If I were a student I might reasonably question the captains/instructors motivation and the intended lesson.

Please give me some credit for common sense. I didn't know at that time anything more than that there was someone in Sunset Lake who objected to anchoring - and the only tales at that time I'd heard of him was that he would tell people his 'wife' objected and would they mind moving. I had no idea where his house was in fact.
Everything since that time has been a revelation - including some of the posters here.

[canucksailor]

Canuck, you told us you were a publisher, but now you are talking like a lawyer.

Doug, you're right with your examples, but you're taking my point out of context, so I'll stand by it, and take your provisos under advisement.

[Randyonr3]

who has the rights, and recently I've read these same issues within this forum..
people demanding they're rights without seeing the other side and who's paying for what.
I pay for a peasefull, quite slip in an upper end marina, so we can set out on the cockpit in the early morning with our cup of coffee and injoy the sunrise.....only to be interupted by the local bass fisherman, two or three per boat, casting within inches of our boat( sometimes hitting it) to get the fish that live under..
or infront or my riverfront home, tyed to the bank, with some 50 year old houseboat with cloths hanging from the lines on the top..
or the fly-by-night canvas worker who works ONLY after hours in the marina where we have our business because he has no insurance, business licences, or pays no taxes..
And all say and I quote "WE HAVE THE RIGHT"......
And I ask, Where are my rights???????.. I pay a healthy price for the slip I keep the boat in.... Cant imagine the thousands I've stuck into the waterfront home, and my business, my overhead is more than the average person makes..
Why is it right for someone with NO investment what-so-ever to invade someone elses life..
Many of these people live "off the grid" using what the rest of us pay for, in personal moneys and taxes.
I for one, am tired of hearing people say I have the right....

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

who has the rights, and recently I've read these same issues within this forum..
people demanding they're rights without seeing the other side and who's paying for what.
I pay for a peasefull, quite slip in an upper end marina, so we can set out on the cockpit in the early morning with our cup of coffee and injoy the sunrise.....only to be interupted by the local bass fisherman, two or three per boat, casting within inches of our boat( sometimes hitting it) to get the fish that live under..
or infront or my riverfront home, tyed to the bank, with some 50 year old houseboat with cloths hanging from the lines on the top..
or the fly-by-night canvas worker who works ONLY after hours in the marina where we have our business because he has no insurance, business licences, or pays no taxes..
And all say and I quote "WE HAVE THE RIGHT"......
And I ask, Where are my rights???????.. I pay a healthy price for the slip I keep the boat in.... Cant imagine the thousands I've stuck into the waterfront home, and my business, my overhead is more than the average person makes..
Why is it right for someone with NO investment what-so-ever to invade someone elses life..
Many of these people live "off the grid" using what the rest of us pay for, in personal moneys and taxes.
I for one, am tired of hearing people say I have the right....

I'll help here...

You have the right to move to another house. You have the right to choose another slip.

Waterways are one of the few remaining "free" things in this country where everyone is allowed access. Just because you dumped money into a water front house does not exclude anyone else from using the water.

[canucksailor]

Many of these people live "off the grid" using what the rest of us pay for, in personal moneys and taxes.I for one, am tired of hearing people say I have the right....

I can't disagree with the examples you cite, and I sympathize with you, those would aggravate me as well, but those are not the behaviours that we are talking about here.

I pay a healthy price for the slip I keep the boat in.... Cant imagine the thousands I've stuck into the waterfront home, and my business

And you've got the rights to your slip, the property your home sits on, and the right to operate your business. You also have the right to protest behaviour that infringes on those - but you didn't buy the view, nor the water twenty feet past your slip. Don't misunderstand - I would be pissed too, AND find a way to deal with those bass fishermen. I would say that stringing some netting at the back of your boat that would foul the lures might work well and discourage them... but I digress...
My point is, this has to work in both directions - cruisers, AND for those on land. And as cruisers, we need to deal with the problem boaters - the derelicts and the other problem types. We also have to recognize that sometimes, WE are the problem and modify our behaviour to some degree.
Sit tight, I'm getting information to start up another thread on this exact topic, because if we as cruisers don't find a solution, one will be found for us, and I guarantee that we won't like it.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I'll help here...

You have the right to move to another house. You have the right to choose another slip.

Waterways are one of the few remaining "free" things in this country where everyone is allowed access. Just because you dumped money into a water front house does not exclude anyone else from using the water.

Thats pretty much the same words I heard from the low-life living in the old house boat in front of my home.. He's never worked a job, living on Aid ,and being supported by taxes.. the same taxes I pay in property and business.. He has never earned the right except to be born here..

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Thats pretty much the same words I heard from the low-life living in the old house boat in front of my home.. He's never worked a job, living on Aid ,and being supported by taxes.. the same taxes I pay in property and business.. He has never earned the right except to be born here..

I bet he even has the right to vote.....that scumbag....

or the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness......what the heck has he done to deserve those rights......jeez....

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Piglet

or the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness....

Thats exactlly what I'm refering to..If I buy the property, and I pay the taxes based on that waterfront property with the view, And the property taxes are based on value of the property.. the value is HIGH because of the view, so I am in fact paying taxes on the view of that water..
The water is yours to use, but I pay the government for the view I have..
If my home, as well as the homes at sunset lake in Miami, were backed up to some alley on some backstreet, the value would be far less as well as my taxes.. but mine, as well as those on sunset lake are valued based on the view and taxed accordingly..
so Life liberty and persuit of hapiness, I pay a fair amount of fees for the happiness i have and the life I lead..
and again, the water is not mine, but the view is...........

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Thats exactlly what I'm refering to..If I buy the property, and I pay the taxes based on that waterfront property with the view, And the property taxes are based on value of the property.. the value is HIGH because of the view, so I am in fact paying taxes on the view of that water..
The water is yours to use, but I pay the government for the view I have..
If my home, as well as the homes at sunset lake in Miami, were backed up to some alley on some backstreet, the value would be far less as well as my taxes.. but mine, as well as those on sunset lake are valued based on the view and taxed accordingly..
so Life liberty and persuit of hapiness, I pay a fair amount of fees for the happiness i have and the life I lead..
and again, the water is not mine, but the view is...........

You own the view up to your property line...because you can determine what's on your property...

The waterway is not your property...you cannot control (nor should you be able to, regardless of how much money you paid) who is allowed on the waterway, therefore you do not own that view....

Simple really. I can understand your frustration, but the alternative is crap for everyone. What if a mega-billionaire moves next door to you and builds a mega mansion. He drinks his coffe on his patio and has to look at your dumpy little house. He owns that view right?

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Thats exactlly what I'm refering to..If I buy the property, and I pay the taxes based on that waterfront property with the view, And the property taxes are based on value of the property.. the value is HIGH because of the view, so I am in fact paying taxes on the view of that water..
The water is yours to use, but I pay the government for the view I have..
If my home, as well as the homes at sunset lake in Miami, were backed up to some alley on some backstreet, the value would be far less as well as my taxes.. but mine, as well as those on sunset lake are valued based on the view and taxed accordingly..
so Life liberty and persuit of hapiness, I pay a fair amount of fees for the happiness i have and the life I lead..
and again, the water is not mine, but the view is...........

There are three sides to every story. Yours, Theirs and the Truth, which lies somewhere in the middle. It is one thing for someone to be fishing from your boat, dock or property. It is quite another to be using the water which is free to everyone. No they can't access the water from your property, but they can access the water NEXT to your property.

Please at least consider that people have been using the water long before you either you or someone else decided to build there. They've been happily fishing, anchoring, etc. there with family and friends for generations. Then you come along and say, "Well, I paid for the land and I paid for the house, now you can no longer use the water because I paid for the view too.

The cost of the property is based on the demand and is essentially dictated by what someone is willing to pay for it. the nicer the land or the view the more expensive the property. Your choice to pay a premium for the property does not entitle you to restrict the freedoms of others. If the city/town, county, state or federal government have decided to lean a 'View Tax" then you should take that up with the legislative body that is imposing the tax. This still doesn't give you the right to impose on other poeple's civil liberties.

If someone is breaking the law, prove it and have the appropriate authorities handle it. If you simply don't like the view, then don't look. If you don't like the view you paid for, then move to someplace where you do like the view.

[Shrew]

BTW- I would suspect that Chief Noriega is no longer taking Mr Karlton's calls after an official inquiry. He would be crazy to leave himself open to further questions regarding his ethics. I would further bet, that the chief has set a very specific set of guidelines on how the PD handles further complaints from the citizens in this area.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

... and again, the water is not mine, but the view is...........

No, it's not; a view is not among your (US) rights.

Generally, homeowners have no right to a view (or light or air), unless it has been granted, in writing, by a local ordinance or subdivision rule. The exception to this general rule is that someone may not deliberately and maliciously block another's view, with a structure that has no reasonable use to the owner.

Caveat Emptor: I'm NOT a lawyer.

[canucksailor]

The water is yours to use, but I pay the government for the view I have..

Now that is an intriguing piece of logic, isn't it? Let me build on it.
Fact is, no one owns the view, it simply IS. If someone owned the view, then sure as God made green apples, the government would be taxing it.
Also, any good view changes over time, they aren't static. So there will be times when your view is very very good - a great sunset/sunrise, a beauty of a wooden classic sailboat anchored out, or a power cruiser with a couple of hot babes, and there will be times when the view isn't so good, such as when Bubba moves his trashy houseboat into it.
Of course, some might argue the view is improved with Bubba, because he demonstrates that their is liberty in this country, that some things are available to all, but that's not the point of this argument, is it?
Now to the point. Since you believe you pay taxes on 'your' view, then like any good taxable item, you should be paying MORE tax when it improves - right?
I'm sure you would be willing to pay higher taxes to guarantee your view as being 'Bubba' free?