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Old 02-11-2011, 11:26   #16
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

there is likely a waiting list to get into pirate training over there.
So for every pirate eliminated, more and more willing to become one.
The fact that the ships have been easy targets just encourages piracy.
And the land targets, taking hostages are even easier.

Some liberals have expressed opinions that the pirates are just trying to survive because affluent rich people don't give to keep them from turning pirate.

If you let people bully you, your a loser, and the bully wont stop the attack till he is put down.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:32   #17
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

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I'm continually amazed that the pirate lairs on the coast are not taken out. Somalia is practically an anarchy. It's obvious from recent events that the pirates are spreading to neighbouring countries and abducting westerners (the recent death of a terminally ill French woman being a case in point) so they aren't going away. Yes it would kill a lot of people, some of them might even be innocent or at least not directly involved. Sad. But do it anyway.

These are lice who prey on our humanity and desire to see people returned safely to their families. They exploit it for profit. Frankly, I think they should be paid off in high explosives and napalm. Captured pirates SHOULD be hung. Preferably in public.
Am I bloodthirsty? No, not really. But these people (and I use the term loosely) are indifferent to suffering and murder and use our compassion for humanity against us. I think it might be time to play at least a little by their rules and stomp on them very hard, the British should remember the parable about paying Danegeld and never getting rid of the Danes.

AussieGeoff
The "pirate lairs" are entire coastal towns and villages. "Taking them out" would sweep up a lot of innocents.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:36   #18
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

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Some liberals have expressed opinions that the pirates are just trying to survive because affluent rich people don't give to keep them from turning pirate.
I've never heard anyone express it that way. I think they may have said that a lack of economic opportunities in a failed state has led some people to sign on for a high risk/high reward criminal enterprise.

Given the facts, It'd be hard to argue with that, whatever your politics.
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Old 02-11-2011, 13:15   #19
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

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Originally Posted by AussieGeoff View Post
I'm continually amazed that the pirate lairs on the coast are not taken out. Somalia is practically an anarchy. It's obvious from recent events that the pirates are spreading to neighbouring countries and abducting westerners (the recent death of a terminally ill French woman being a case in point) so they aren't going away. Yes it would kill a lot of people, some of them might even be innocent or at least not directly involved. Sad. But do it anyway.

These are lice who prey on our humanity and desire to see people returned safely to their families. They exploit it for profit. Frankly, I think they should be paid off in high explosives and napalm. Captured pirates SHOULD be hung. Preferably in public.
Am I bloodthirsty? No, not really. But these people (and I use the term loosely) are indifferent to suffering and murder and use our compassion for humanity against us. I think it might be time to play at least a little by their rules and stomp on them very hard, the British should remember the parable about paying Danegeld and never getting rid of the Danes.

AussieGeoff
I'm continually amazed that people still think like this in the 21st century. "Lice who prey on our humanity"?! You sound remarkably like a Nazi, ever heard the term Untermenschen? Public hangings and bombing innocent civilians is all very WWII as well. Is it so hard to see that these people have not been presented with the same opportunities as those of us who are more fortunate? I know if I lived in Somalia and was watching my family slowly starve to death with no way out, I would happily do anything whatsoever to feed them, including getting sucked into the kind of criminal organization that makes an industry out of hostage taking. Most of these "pirates" are very poor, and have no options other than starving. You can say that's their fault alone, but you'd be wrong. For the cost of a military solution in that part of the world, we could easily just feed and house them. You call it "giving in to bullies", I call it caring for the needy. Iraq's "military solution" cost ten years and 3 trillion dollars. Given the same kind of investment in the Horn of Africa, we could easily turn things around there without any military involvement. But theres no money in that so it will never happen. Much more profitable to let people starve and start a regional conflict every few years.
Saying these people are indifferent to suffering and murder is criminal, they have been exposed to more of that than you could ever imagine. Allow genocide and mass starvation to occur, and people do become hardened to violence and misery, but thats certainly not the same as being indifferent. These people have children and love them too. If they were truly indifferent to suffering they wouldn't risk their lives going to sea in tiny boats to feed their families, they'd just let them starve.
It's a complex issue, and the urge to just resort to violence and throw explosives at the problem is reprehensible. It won't solve anything, and it makes you worse than the "pirates". They are just trying to survive in a war-torn, starvation riddled country (except for upper management of course). Just stay away until the problem is resolved, hopefully in an adult and humanitarian fashion, not by some 12 yr old boy knee jerk reactionary. Have some humanity, not caring if innocent people are killed (by someone else in your name I might add) is just wrong.
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Old 02-11-2011, 14:32   #20
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

well it just is not done that way mostly in human societies over the last few thousands of years of civilization, that is buying the peace with trinkets or giving over there so they wont be coming over here or letting them destroy what you have to take what they need or want with impunity.

Typically there is always a price to pay for what is considered piracy regardless of the motivations and that price can mean warfare even to a lot of serious destruction.

Really national wealth is always concentrated in the hands of a few people regardless of what nation your thinking of. Even in a rich country, a lot of people now are really struggling. Not as bad as living in huts or starving yet.
People naturally dont want to give when they feel like they need to get.

Do you know that the Al Shabab Islamist's wont let aid in to the country?, so people have tried and the existing power structure over there dont want to let it happen. Tough life.
Muslims believe in fate and not much on the mercy side which IMO is Christian. Not that christians are necessarily overtly merciful, yet Christianity or perhaps a Christian heritage even if the nation is not overtly Christian tends to make a nation think differently dont you think?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/07/al...n-somalis.html


Christians also believe in a similar fate or destiny.
However, christians, if they ever read the bible should be acting very mercifully even while considering that destiny is still real. Mohammed borrowed a lot from both Judaism and Christianity and added a bunch more to create that religion.

Quote:
Chapter VII
FATE AND THE DIVINE DECREE

Belief:

We believe in Fate, whether good or bad, which Allah has measured and ordained for all creatures according to His previous knowledge and as deemed suitable by His wisdom.

Levels of Belief:

Belief in Fate has four levels: 1) Knowledge: We believe that Allah, may He be exalted, knows everything. He knows what has happened and what will happen and how it will happen. His knowledge is eternal. He does not acquire a new knowledge nor does he forget what He knows.

2) Recording: We believe that Allah has recorded in the secured tablet (al Lowh al Mahfuz) whatever is going to happen until the Day of Judgment: "Did you not know that Allah knows all that is in heaven and Earth? Surely that is in a book. Surely that for Allah is an easy matter" (22:70).

3) Will: We believe that Allah has willed everything in heaven and Earth. Nothing happens except by His will. Whatever He wills will take place, and whatever He does not will not take place.

4) Creation: We believe that "Allah is the Creator of all things; He is the Guardian over all things, and to Him belong the keys of the heavens and the Earth" (39:62-3). This level includes whatever Allah Himself does and whatever His creatures do. Thus each saying, deed, or omission of the people is known to Allah, Who has recorded, willed, and created them: "To those among you who will to be upright. But you shall not will except as Allah wills, the Lord of the Worlds" (81:2829); "And had Allah willed they would not have fought one against the other; but Allah does whatever He desires" (2:253); "Had Allah willed, they would not have done so, but leave them alone and their false inventions" (6:137); and "And Allah created you and what you do" (37:96). Man's Free Will:
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Old 02-11-2011, 15:38   #21
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

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well it just is not done that way mostly in human societies over the last few thousands of years of civilization, that is buying the peace with trinkets or giving over there so they wont be coming over here or letting them destroy what you have to take what they need or want with impunity.

Not done that way mostly? What a cogent argument for not trying to do it that way now. Always the worry about "them" coming "over here". You really think Somalians will invade Australia if not kept in check somehow?

Typically there is always a price to pay for what is considered piracy regardless of the motivations and that price can mean warfare even to a lot of serious destruction.

Of course theres a price to pay for criminal activity. The problem comes when the price for inactivity is higher (ie dying).

Really national wealth is always concentrated in the hands of a few people regardless of what nation your thinking of. Even in a rich country, a lot of people now are really struggling. Not as bad as living in huts or starving yet.
People naturally dont want to give when they feel like they need to get.

Sure is. But obviously this phenomenon is much more pronounced in Somalia than in a Western democracy. And there isn't much wealth to start with there, for instance they dont have much luck with agriculture. You could be the smartest, nicest, hard workingest, self-starter in the world, but if you happened to be born in Somalia it wont do you a bit of good. You'll still starve with the rest. Trying to say we are just as bad off as them is disingenuous at best.

Do you know that the Al Shabab Islamist's wont let aid in to the country?, so people have tried and the existing power structure over there dont want to let it happen. Tough life.

I grew up a Peace Corps brat, and have actually lived in Somalia, as well as all over the Middle East and India. My father was a diplomat for CARE Intl. when we lived in Africa, and the problems were the same then (the 70's) as they are now, they are just worse now. If the more organized governments of the world really wanted to deal with this problem they could. People in this country didn't seem to have a problem spending big money on a war, if we spent the same amounts on a more humanitarian approach it would very likely work. But noone will do it because the opportunities for profiteering aren't as large, and the poor people who live there happen to black (read Lice who prey on our humanity).


3Muslims believe in fate and not much on the mercy side which IMO is Christian. Not that christians are necessarily overtly merciful, yet Christianity or perhaps a Christian heritage even if the nation is not overtly Christian tends to make a nation think differently dont you think?

Many Christians also believe in fate in exactly the same misinformed way as many Muslims, the whole schism between protestantism and catholicism is about the issue of free will. Christians certainly are not overtly merciful, history has proved that much. I do think it makes a nation think differently, and not in a good way. The Germans circa 1940 certainly had a "Christian heritage", as did Stalin's Russia, and most of the other great committers of atrocities in history. Look at all the conflicts with very high numbers of casualties in history-almost all conducted by Christian nations. How about the Crusades for instance?

Al-Shabaab jihadists preventing aid from reaching 2.2 million Somalis - Jihad Watch


Christians also believe in a similar fate or destiny. Mohammed borrowed a lot from both Judaism and Christianity and added a bunch more to create that religion.

Just like all the christian prophets of the last 2000 yrs have removed or added material to the bible at will to maintain their system of control over humanity. The many forms of the book now available bear little resemblance to the original document. And of course all of Christianity and therefore Islam was "borrowed" from Judaism, Jesus was a Jew after all.

Given the content of Jesus' teachings, it always strikes me as strange that "christians" always seem to be the first to turn to violence for a solution. What happened to "love thine enemy" or "turn the other cheek" or any number of other bible quotes? I guess if you are foolish enough to embrace such obvious dogmatic claptrap as christianity or most any other religion which tells you to believe things that cannot be proved on "faith", then you can turn it into whatever you want it to be. The truth no longer has anything to do with it at that point, it's all your fantasy and you can make it whatever you want.
Unlike most christians I know, I have actually read both the bible and quran (as well as the bhagavad gita) cover to cover more than once. They are both full of obvious BS and patently false ploys to get what the writers wanted. You can make either volume say whatever you want, which says a lot about the historical con men that were the prophets and their successors. I am just constantly stumped that people buy into this stuff, even brainwashing from birth fails on many because it's such obvious BS. JMHO-which I'm sure will be deleted by a mod anyway...
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Old 02-11-2011, 16:24   #22
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

I am not sure how worshipping a replacement for a goat (one for Gord to Google up? ) would help the Somalis. But I guess fits into the category of "try anything once"
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Old 02-11-2011, 16:41   #23
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

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Muslims believe in fate and not much on the mercy side which IMO is Christian. Not that christians are necessarily overtly merciful, yet Christianity or perhaps a Christian heritage even if the nation is not overtly Christian tends to make a nation think differently dont you think?
If you knew your history you would realize that "Christians" have probably killed more people than any other religion, and all in the name of GOD. And it didn't start or end with the Crusades.
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Old 02-11-2011, 16:54   #24
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

Just curious. Who here, who is not Muslim, has had a serious, mature conversation with a practising Muslim.
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Old 02-11-2011, 16:55   #25
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

I have.
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Old 02-11-2011, 17:03   #26
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

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Just curious. Who here, who is not Muslim, has had a serious, mature conversation with a practising Muslim.
LoL I haven't met a mature follower of Cheeses yet .
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Old 02-11-2011, 20:57   #27
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

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Just curious. Who here, who is not Muslim, has had a serious, mature conversation with a practising Muslim.
Seriously? I've had countless. They do make up 20% of mankind. And I've had plenty of the same with christians as well. That's what's so scary about organized religion, it's pervasiveness. Perfectly sane and intelligent people think it's normal to worship an old bearded man in the clouds....
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Old 02-11-2011, 21:35   #28
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

Major thread drift alert. Is this thread still about piracy?
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:16   #29
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

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Seriously? I've had countless. They do make up 20% of mankind. And I've had plenty of the same with christians as well. That's what's so scary about organized religion, it's pervasiveness. Perfectly sane and intelligent people think it's normal to worship an old bearded man in the clouds....
Gotta remember that Islam is a religion of Peace

BBC News - French satirical paper Charlie Hebdo attacked in Paris

BTW I think the Cheeses folks have moved on from the old man in the clouds idea - apparently it made 'em look silly and stuff like that was a bit too succeptible to rational thought ..........nowadays it's about whatever an individual wants it to be - often involving simply a vague hope of something after life.

IMO Wizards and Shamen etc were the first Pirates. I wish I had been the person who invented gods and religion
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:00   #30
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Re: Stronger Governmental Response to Piracy

I worked directly with several Muslims in India and met many more in my travels through south and southwest Asia. Since I am not a "believer" of any false creed (and, IMO, all religions are false), I find the religious everywhere basically the same, some are more brainwashed than others. At one end of the spectrum, it's basically stroking rabbit's feet, on the other it's blowing yourself up.

Having said that, it's worth pointing out that the people of Nantucket once made their living preying on ships that ran up there.
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