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Old 24-11-2009, 21:51   #31
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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
I find it curious that no one has noted that the voyage was illegal. While I wish this unfortunate sailor no ill will. I find it the height of stupidty to embark on such a single handed voyage where it is impossible to keep the legally required watch.
The voyage is not "illegal". As far as recreational craft are concerned, the COLREGS 1972 are not law, they are an international convention. Outside of territorial waters there is no "law" which requires a (non-commercial) vessel to keep watch. So long as the vessel is under watch until outside the 12 mile zone, if required by local law, then beyond that point (or wherever local jurisdiction ends) it is up to the private skipper whether to abide by the colregs convention or not.
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Old 24-11-2009, 22:01   #32
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Freedom of Sail

Sure, anyone can take off in any boat they choose with or without any emergency equipment. All well and good.

But when they don't show up as scheduled.
Relatives or Fellow Sailors make the call to the authorities - then tens if not hundreds of thousands of $$$$ are spent but much more important lives of rescuers are placed at risk as they search the wild blue ocean to find the freedom loving sailor.

$40 seems a more than reasonable amount of insurance to protect the Freedom loving sailor and even better minimize the risk & cost to rescue said sailing "patriot" if something goes astray.........Hope for the Best and Prepare for the Worse.

Or maybe sign a waiver that NO rescue planes, boats, diverted comm'l ships etc of any kind are required to respond no matter who calls ..........now that's Freedom.
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Old 24-11-2009, 22:44   #33
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I start to get a little cranky with the to do about the "legally required watch" thing.

If you wish to live your life by those rules - so be it. No complaints.

Kindly do NOT try to enforce your rules on me. This is at worst a victimless crime, especially of the fellow does not have an EPIRB. You may, in your opinion, consider sailing solo without and EPIRB and solo as suicidal. It may be so. But if that is his (or my) decision, and it harms you not, then please don't try to enforce your point of view on others.

A nice thing about sailing is the relief from all the idiotic rules and regulations of landlocked society. The last thing I want to do is to pollute our sanity with the bureaucratic mind set.

Well said, thank you!

Let's not forget that he chose to take responsiblity for his actions. It is unfortunate that something bad may have happened to him.
Some will pass judgement and place blame in the hopes that nothing bad will ever happen to them.
As for the cost of a SAR operation, is it not the same cost that training for a SAR operation would cost? Should we assess the cost of putting out a house fire on the home owner?
Please explain why it is somehow acceptable for a crewed boat to sink and "illegal" for a singlehandlers boat to sink.
And please no "proper watch" rants. I've seen and heard of to many crewed boats with an empty cockpit.

Yes I was a singlehandler.
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Old 24-11-2009, 23:02   #34
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SAR - Same Cost as Training = HELL no.
The Canadian & USCG don't need anymore training and when the do train - it is not flying all over the friggin' ocean trying to find some "freedom" loving sailor.
It's a waste of time, $$$ and unnecessary risk of their lives. For the $40 mentioned, An EPIRB would give the location they would coordinate the rescue and his family (and maybe even him) would be very grateful. I would have and I'm sure his family would have paid for the rental.

House Fire = everyone knows EXACTLY where it is - Fire dept comes (at risk too) and puts it out and we all go back to sleep. Unlike the freedom loving sailor who has his family sick with worry during their sleepless nights.

If you are that much into being a Freedom Loving Sailor and don't want to be found / rescued, then tell your family NOT to call the CG. If not, then be responsible and do everything you can to make it easy to rescue you just in case things don't work out.

Never said anything about sending a bill......
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Old 25-11-2009, 06:18   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
I start to get a little cranky with the to do about the "legally required watch" thing.

If you wish to live your life by those rules - so be it. No complaints.

Kindly do NOT try to enforce your rules on me. This is at worst a victimless crime, especially of the fellow does not have an EPIRB. You may, in your opinion, consider sailing solo without and EPIRB and solo as suicidal. It may be so. But if that is his (or my) decision, and it harms you not, then please don't try to enforce your point of view on others.

A nice thing about sailing is the relief from all the idiotic rules and regulations of landlocked society. The last thing I want to do is to pollute our sanity with the bureaucratic mind set.
Mate, I with you on this one .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuteman View Post
.............
Relatives or Fellow Sailors make the call to the authorities - then tens if not hundreds of thousands of $$$$ are spent but much more important lives of rescuers are placed at risk as they search the wild blue ocean to find the freedom loving sailor.
All professional SAR outfits that I aware of do NOT put their lives in danger, they have a requirement to carry out the SAR operation safely, if it can't be done safely, it isn't done; normal OH&S practice for any business.

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$40 seems a more than reasonable amount of insurance to protect the Freedom loving sailor and even better minimize the risk & cost to rescue said sailing "patriot" if something goes astray.........Hope for the Best and Prepare for the Worse.
I agree that for a small outlay, friends and relatives can take some comfort from (perhaps) knowing if the has been some emergency.
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Old 25-11-2009, 06:36   #36
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Last time I checked, or heard about it, the CG seems to train regularly. In fact there was an incident in Nfld not long ago where no CCG helos were available because they were all off on a training event. I think the point about it being no more expensive than training is valid.

The worst thing about these situations, aside from the tragic loss of life, is that it encourages the shriekers and wailers to bombard the bureaucrats for more rules and regulations, and they are usually happy to comply. Subsequent loss of freedom for everyone seems to get washed aside. I am tired of the constant erosion of our rights and freedoms, and they are eroding quickly up in this part of the great white north. No matter how hard you try to legislate safety, people will find ways to kill themselves, accept that, move on and leave our remaining freedoms alone.
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Old 25-11-2009, 06:50   #37
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Freedom of Sail

Sure, anyone can take off in any boat they choose with or without any emergency equipment. All well and good.

But when they don't show up as scheduled.
Relatives or Fellow Sailors make the call to the authorities - then tens if not hundreds of thousands of $$$$ are spent but much more important lives of rescuers are placed at risk as they search the wild blue ocean to find the freedom loving sailor.
Society, if you choose to rescue me that's your problem and you can pay for it too. Society takes this burden on themselves under the guise of being civilized.

Let me assess and render my own risk be it climbing, diving, out-of-bounds skiing, cruising off shore, go down the list and stay out of my life. There are 6.5 billion people, we can't save everyone. We can't put everyone in a cocoon of safety.

Oh yea, lets tie us all together with insurance and to save money force me to wear a seatbelt and eat healthy food. Absolve me from all responsibility and rational thought and my freedom to boot because you want to be civilized.

Where does line of reasoning end?

OBTW, in spite of all of this I wouldn't turn down a rescue. And charge me if I accept.
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Old 25-11-2009, 07:11   #38
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Ode to THE LONE SAILOR.

Everything thing about me just says go,
Priorities and burdens I must let go,
I want so much to be land-free,
To be where there is no land to see.

To be an absorbed part of the boat,
One more thread in an ethereal coat,
Encompassing, encloaking, a protective sheath,
Protecting my flesh from the deep beneath.

Wind's touch, soft on my face,
In this one spot, in this no-place,
Endless, limitless, source of emotion,
From endless, limitless, faceless ocean.

I wrote this after the death of a very close solo sailor friend of mine.
It is what guides me respect Barnie's right to sail without a life jacket, even if I disagree with him.
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Old 25-11-2009, 07:22   #39
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I understand that this gentleman was over sixty years old. Wonder if he had a heart attack? If it was a heart attack, don't think he would be reaching for the EPIRB, probably grabbing his chest instead. So assuming he had a heart attack, how would this change any of your arguements about a SAR search?
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Old 25-11-2009, 07:26   #40
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Air crews are limited to the number of hours they fly per month be it in "training" or on "missions." They are also required to do a certain number of maneuvers to stay current on their training. So, if you are due to recertify then you need to train. That cost is there with our without missions. Past that doing a mission or getting in hours is pretty much the same. Many times we were out doing some form of training exercise and were "diverted" to a SAR.

So the cost answer is about 50% one way or the other.

But then...if you have no means of alerting searchers to your position, and there is no good fix on your last position, the chances of finding you are about nil. In those conditions, in my opinion, the search is much more about giving the families at home time to adjust to the reality. So it is a social cost. 2 cents.
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Old 25-11-2009, 07:29   #41
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The worst thing about these situations, aside from the tragic loss of life, is that it encourages the shriekers and wailers to bombard the bureaucrats for more rules and regulations, and they are usually happy to comply. Subsequent loss of freedom for everyone seems to get washed aside. I am tired of the constant erosion of our rights and freedoms, and they are eroding quickly up in this part of the great white north. No matter how hard you try to legislate safety, people will find ways to kill themselves, accept that, move on and leave our remaining freedoms alone.
Wish it wasn't too long to be a sig.



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Old 25-11-2009, 07:42   #42
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A quote that might be more applicable today than ever, commonly attributed to Benjamin Franklin, although the exact source is unknown:

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

/Hampus
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Old 25-11-2009, 07:55   #43
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... I find it curious that no one has noted that the voyage was illegal...
LOL. Now, I mea it - c'mon - I real mean it: LOLing out loud and my friends holding me tight down on the floor ;-)))))

Tell this to the whales and the albatrosses that enter the territorial waters of any country without passports, MAF control and EPIRB units...

Sailor beware. Of countries where sailing can be illegal.

b.
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Old 25-11-2009, 08:44   #44
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"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

/Hampus
One of my favourite quotes, have seen it also with this ending:

"AND WILL LOSE BOTH"

I agree fully with it, either way. Average person just does not see the slippery slope we are heading down.
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Old 25-11-2009, 08:58   #45
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One of my favourite quotes, have seen it also with this ending:

"AND WILL LOSE BOTH"

I agree fully with it, either way. Average person just does not see the slippery slope we are heading down.
I have been raging on this topic since Michigan passed the seatbelt and motorcycle helmet laws 25 years ago!

We need a law that makes it illegal to have laws that dictate lifestyle choices in order to save money on Federal/State mandated insurance. Think car insurance, national health insurance, etc. Many people will give up Constitutional freedoms and pass rules to save a few dollars.

I thought our US Constitution protected us here but maybe we need more protections.
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