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Old 14-06-2014, 12:34   #46
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

I also made a pile of phantom hotel reservations during the cup. The prices were really high but everywhere I tried around Union Square had vacancies. The town really was full during Larry's geekfest which took place directly after the AC. Only the most expensive places had rooms that week.
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Old 14-06-2014, 12:42   #47
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

The problem is even though the SF Bay is perfect for sailing and racing, 99.4% of the Bay area population cares nothing for it. It's just one of 100's of activities people do around here. If AC34 had had 10-12 teams rather then just four, there would have been more tax revenue to the City. AC34 did bring $320 million to SF (using their number) that does not include income to other cities and businesses around the bay.

I expect that the actual loss to the city was less then indicated. As the employees in planning/environmental for example would still be paid no matter what project they worked on.
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Old 14-06-2014, 12:59   #48
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

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Originally Posted by savoir View Post
I also made a pile of phantom hotel reservations during the cup.
Now you have moved from "a little strange" to very strange. Why were you making "piles" of phantom box seat and hotel reservations? And then canceling them? What does that even prove?

And why should we believe you about it?

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Old 14-06-2014, 13:37   #49
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

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The problem is even though the SF Bay is perfect for sailing and racing, 99.4% of the Bay area population cares nothing for it. It's just one of 100's of activities people do around here. If AC34 had had 10-12 teams rather then just four, there would have been more tax revenue to the City. AC34 did bring $320 million to SF (using their number) that does not include income to other cities and businesses around the bay.

I expect that the actual loss to the city was less then indicated. As the employees in planning/environmental for example would still be paid no matter what project they worked on.
Always hard to know what the losses are. How much tax revenue brought in. How much of the costs were incremental costs. And the one promoting will generally inflate the money brought in while the ones opposing will inflate the expenses.

Here's an interesting link which summarizes some of the issues currently with America's Cup with Larry Ellison running things.

America's Cup win for billionaire Larry Ellison a hollow victory | South China Morning Post

He's already narrowed it down to four boats. Will it be two next time? The "American" boat that won and flew US flags, had only one American on it. He's asking for amounts from the city and the networks and then failing to deliver to them. I'm sure SF didn't anticipate just four boats and I'm sure they were led to believe more people would watch on tv.

I try to think of something similar and I come up with "What if Formula 1 was reduced to four cars?"

For a true sailor, has AC distanced itself from normal sailing so far that it's lost interest or do you still find it extremely exciting to watch? As an infrequent sailor and certainly not a true one, I'm curious. Would love to just hear sailor's express their interest or dis-interest.
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Old 14-06-2014, 14:38   #50
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

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I would think what you did would have been very exciting. I can assure you that if I'd been there, I would have tried to get somewhere on the water to see. Just because it would have been a once in a lifetime thing.

But also what you're indicating is that not a lot of people did view it. So very exciting for a very few people. That's the problem. Now I have no idea how many people actually viewed it.
Well, here's how it worked: your sailboat can go 5-7 knots. These guys zip around at 20+. How long do you think they're in view during a race? That's simply another reality. Going thru the bridge when the last race was over was more exciting for me than the 6 to 8 races I did see. I also enjoyed the TV coverage when I was home to watch. They did a fantastic job.

But a LOT of people DID view it.

Sailorchic is right, 99% of the people here couldn't care. But the same 99% could care less about Hardly Strictly Bluegrass, the Mac Conventions, internal medicine, dental conventions...you name it.

It's like anything else in life: People who want to see the stuff show up for it. Like going to any concert: James Taylor, the opera, Huey Lewis, Sting...get the idea?

The stands were in a great place to watch the main portion/area of the race, but some of the races, if not most of them, were sooo close that watching from the Americas Village and near the finish line made a lot more sense.

The first mark after the start one couldn't see what was happening between the start and the mark, which was where many of the races were won or lost.

The second mark east of Alcatraz was also important.

They also broadcast the audio TV commentary over VHF Ch 20 which was very helpful.

SF can parse the #s anyway they want. The entire Bay Area got a benefit from more people BEING here. Simple. Like ANY convention city. There's NO WAY to measure it. Here's an example: how many more bridge tolls were collected because people who came to see the races stayed in Berkeley and not the City? There are tons of others, I'm sure.

To BandB:

I try to think of something similar and I come up with "What if Formula 1 was reduced to four cars?"

For a true sailor, has AC distanced itself from normal sailing so far that it's lost interest or do you still find it extremely exciting to watch? As an infrequent sailor and certainly not a true one, I'm curious. Would love to just hear sailor's express their interest or dis-interest.


The Formula 1 comparisons were literally beaten to death during the races themselves. Google or search for it. A nonsense comparison. IMHO.

True sailor? I've been sailing here since 1980, started as a kid in the 50s: see my paragraph 1 above. I sail a LOT slower than these guys do, everyone does unless you have a mutlihull. But during the entire YEAR before the races, these guys were practicing on the Bay, and we got buzzed often. I got a picture I took of a friend's identical boat with Oracle in the background, CLOSE BY, zipping by, on the cover of the Catalina Mainsheet magazine.

It was a fun YEAR.

If you don't know or care about sailing, you can keep yawning.
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Old 14-06-2014, 14:55   #51
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

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It was a fun YEAR.

If you don't know or care about sailing, you can keep yawning.
Glad to hear it made a fun year. As to comparisons to some of the things you mentioned, the big difference is they don't require a payment to come. Although indirectly they do as the facilities had to be paid for.

I love to watch sailboats. We love to be on them, but not to be the ones doing the hard work. I've always said I'm too lazy for sailing. But sailing is a beautiful sport. Just I enjoy watching all the sailboats out on a given day, use to enjoy watching lake regattas too, more than I personally enjoyed America's Cup this year. Now the comeback made a great story. I felt bad for the NZ boat.

I don't think SF is definitely out, by the way. I think we'll see a lot of posturing and negotiating and trying to pit venue vs. venue. And no telling what the rules become this year. I just would like to see it be a testament again to sailing ability and not a tribute to the technological genius of Larry Ellison.

I wonder if at this moment part of it is conflict between him and some of the local government officials.

I can't think of any place in the US that would be as good as San Francisco.
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Old 14-06-2014, 15:09   #52
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

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Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Always hard to know what the losses are. How much tax revenue brought in. How much of the costs were incremental costs. And the one promoting will generally inflate the money brought in while the ones opposing will inflate the expenses.

Here's an interesting link which summarizes some of the issues currently with America's Cup with Larry Ellison running things.

America's Cup win for billionaire Larry Ellison a hollow victory | South China Morning Post

He's already narrowed it down to four boats. Will it be two next time? The "American" boat that won and flew US flags, had only one American on it. He's asking for amounts from the city and the networks and then failing to deliver to them. I'm sure SF didn't anticipate just four boats and I'm sure they were led to believe more people would watch on tv.

I try to think of something similar and I come up with "What if Formula 1 was reduced to four cars?"

For a true sailor, has AC distanced itself from normal sailing so far that it's lost interest or do you still find it extremely exciting to watch? As an infrequent sailor and certainly not a true one, I'm curious. Would love to just hear sailor's express their interest or dis-interest.
There was a thread here when the AC was going on that discussed much about your last question. One thing to point out, though, is that with the exception of the relatively small period of time that 12 meter boats were used, the AC has always been distanced far from normal sailing. Even the 12 meters were far from what most others would ever be able to reach in sailing. Certainly, the early AC's weren't even connected to recreational sailing, and the J-boat years had only 2 or maybe 3 of the most expensive boats, owned by the richest people in the whole world, show up for the races.

About that article you linked to - it is closing in on its first birthday. Besides having most of its facts wrong, all of the doom it predicted for the next AC event has recently been proven wrong. There are already more countries committed, the boat design was agreed upon by the challenger (and it is another big foiling wingsail catamaran), and there is a lot of interest in the entire AC45 lead up series and side events. Cities are lining up to host them.

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Old 14-06-2014, 15:35   #53
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

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There was a thread here when the AC was going on that discussed much about your last question. One thing to point out, though, is that with the exception of the relatively small period of time that 12 meter boats were used, the AC has always been distanced far from normal sailing. Even the 12 meters were far from what most others would ever be able to reach in sailing. Certainly, the early AC's weren't even connected to recreational sailing, and the J-boat years had only 2 or maybe 3 of the most expensive boats, owned by the richest people in the whole world, show up for the races.

About that article you linked to - it is closing in on its first birthday. Besides having most of its facts wrong, all of the doom it predicted for the next AC event has recently been proven wrong. There are already more countries committed, the boat design was agreed upon by the challenger (and it is another big foiling wingsail catamaran), and there is a lot of interest in the entire AC45 lead up series and side events. Cities are lining up to host them.

Mark
Well, I'll be interested in what happens, how many boats they end up with (can be a big difference between committed now and actually get built) and how the cities fall out, then who ends up hosting it. What I read right now says Hawaii, which could offer other benefits to Ellison based on his investments there. For the lead up events, he wants multiple venues according to what I've read.

And when we make it to SF, we'll just enjoy seeing whatever sailboats are sailing.
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Old 14-06-2014, 15:53   #54
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

I live near Chicago and have just heard that the racing committee is considering Lake Michigan off Chicago as a possible venue for the cup race.
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Old 14-06-2014, 15:56   #55
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

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I live near Chicago and have just heard that the racing committee is considering Lake Michigan off Chicago as a possible venue for the cup race.
Curious....has it ever been held on a lake?

I checked wiki and it doesn't appear so.
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Old 14-06-2014, 16:08   #56
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

I don't believe so. It would be a mistake to consider any of the Great Lakes as simply a lake. Quite capable of sinking vessels hundreds of feet long. However, the America's Cup is really just a day race around some marks. Could be held on almost any body of water more than a few miles in length or width. It's not an endurance race like the round the world races or the Chicago to Mackinac race. Those races sink boats. Has any boat competing in the Cup race ever sunk? Not being snarky, really curious. The cup race is all about strategy and positioning around the marks. Again, could almost be done anywhere.
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Old 14-06-2014, 16:15   #57
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

Yes. the Aussie boat sank several years ago, it broke in half.

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Old 14-06-2014, 16:19   #58
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

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I don't believe so. It would be a mistake to consider any of the Great Lakes as simply a lake. Quite capable of sinking vessels hundreds of feet long. However, the America's Cup is really just a day race around some marks. Could be held on almost any body of water more than a few miles in length or width. It's not an endurance race like the round the world races or the Chicago to Mackinac race. Those races sink boats. Has any boat competing in the Cup race ever sunk? Not being snarky, really curious. The cup race is all about strategy and positioning around the marks. Again, could almost be done anywhere.
They are still lakes...hence the name "Great Lakes" and "Lake Michigan". Big lakes, yes. Maybe even great ones. lol.
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Old 14-06-2014, 16:27   #59
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

[QUOTE=crazyoldboatguy;1564413Has any boat competing in the Cup race ever sunk? Not being snarky, really curious. The cup race is all about strategy and positioning around the marks. Again, could almost be done anywhere.[/QUOTE]

Sunk? An AC boat sank and killed a crewmember last year, which was why they imposed the wind speed limits. Where were you? Albeit during practice runs... The NZ boat almost flipped in one of the races.
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Old 14-06-2014, 17:40   #60
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Re: SF ousted for Americas cup

I don't watch sailboat races much. Never got into it. I thought the boat that broke in half did so due to a design issue - making the boat as light as possible left her with too little strength - happens with racing boats.

BandB yes - still just a lake. We flat landers get that a lot. I was a welder in a shipyard in Wisconsin in 1975 when the Edmund Fitzgerald (760' long lake freighter) sank. They said the waves broke her in half - on a lake.

Never heard of a Chicago/Mac race that was delayed or suspended due to wind. Ted Turner sailed in one where almost a dozen boats were dis-masted. On a lake. Poor Ted made fun of the lake before the race. Ate his words after it.
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