Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-05-2013, 18:09   #121
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Cripes, mate, that makes the hairs stand up just thinking about it.

Tell you what: you need to be introduced to the Southern Ocean Solo Sailor's Best Friend

This is a disposable plastic milk or juice bottle (1 litre size is ideal, unless you have a bladder which would rival the Hindenburg).

You need NEVER pee over the side again.

With lots of practice, (and a retrieval lanyard), any anatomically correct male ... or even a pale imitation like me ... can pee safely and comfortably while wearing several layers of thermal gear inside his bib foulweather pants and full-dress foulweather jacket complete with polo-neck + 'grim reaper' hood with integral harness ...

by sticking it down the neckhole and wriggling seductively for half an hour - all while helming at 15knots down ski-slope greybeards, if push comes to shove and needs must.

If you can't reach your bottle from the helm, as a bumper sticker once told me: "Real Sailors do it in their seaboots"

And, in the Southern Ocean, you will also have such a bottle permanently at the ready in your sleeping bag, providing, for zero outlay, more luxury than a shag-carpeted ensuite at the Hilton.

But wait, there's more: it can then be used to keep your feet warm for five minutes.... bliss!
Sounds like it should be an up-coming event at the summer Olympics...
__________________

__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 18:17   #122
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Again...an easily deployable good quality boarding ladder properly installed.

Absolutely. Good and long, so it's not hard to get up on that first rung even if you're tired or injured. I've got a story up on my blog about how a local man is alive only because the boat had a good ladder that could be easily dropped from the water. And that was under the easiest possible circumstance considering his severe injury -- the boat was tied up in a marina.
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 18:22   #123
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Cripes, mate, that makes the hairs stand up just thinking about it.

Tell you what: you need to be introduced to the Southern Ocean Solo Sailor's Best Friend

This is a disposable plastic milk or juice bottle (1 litre size is ideal, unless you have a bladder which would rival the Hindenburg).

You need NEVER pee over the side again.

With lots of practice, (and a retrieval lanyard), any anatomically correct male ... or even a pale imitation like me ... can pee safely and comfortably while wearing several layers of thermal gear inside his bib foulweather pants and full-dress foulweather jacket complete with polo-neck + 'grim reaper' hood with integral harness ...

by sticking it down the neckhole and wriggling seductively for half an hour - all while helming at 15knots down ski-slope greybeards, if push comes to shove and needs must.

If you can't reach your bottle from the helm, as a bumper sticker once told me: "Real Sailors do it in their seaboots"

And, in the Southern Ocean, you will also have such a bottle permanently at the ready in your sleeping bag, providing, for zero outlay, more luxury than a shag-carpeted ensuite at the Hilton.

But wait, there's more: it can then be used to keep your feet warm for five minutes.... bliss!

Then there's always the scuppers...
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 18:34   #124
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I don't understand your point. Perhaps you need to try trailing a line. There's no speed at which a bare line, even with a handle, comes remotely close to the force required to drag a human being, especially the force required to accelerate them suddenly from zero to, say, three knots. If the boat's going really slowly, you jerk the line. If the speed is such that even that doesn't develop enough force, you'll be able to pull yourself back to the boat.

Have you ever handled the line on a ski boat? Even if you haven't: here's a thought experiment which might work for you:

You can retrieve the line by hand rather easily when the skier falls off, even at twenty knots, while the driver circles back. The lightweight handle skips along the surface of the water.

Good luck hand-holding it at three knots with a skier hanging on, though....

The differential between the force at any speed on a bare line, and the sort of single heroic tug a person can exert whose alternative is drowning, is probably several orders of magnitude.



You don't have to hold on, it's the jerk which matters. That will cause the boat to slow down, then (if you lost your grip) you swim to the rope....
Sure, there will be odd cases where it won't work.
And nobody to sue....

But you'd possibly be surprised how hard you can hang on. Once again, think of waterskiing.
Most people can hang on hard enough to get up, even puny kids with arms like noodles: it's the balance which is harder to come by, not the strength.
And you don't have to be superhuman to manage repeated attempts at a deepwater start on a single ski, which requires more bollard pull than most 75hp outboards can deliver.

The following story was not unique, in the days when all voyaging boats trailed a log line: I've read of several such instances, and heard first-hand of one. Maybe sailors had a stronger grip, in olden times ... But you have to remember that a log line is thin cord, spinning rapidly: hardly optimal.

Case 6. During the Transpacific race of 1951. On one boat a crewmember was standing on the end of the main boom (he had no business being there), when the boom slatted and shook him loose into the water.
The boat was only making about 5 knots and, as he drifted astern, he was able to grab the taffrail log, which held him. ..... Since the taffrail log pin held, the crew was able to pull him close aboard simply by retrieving the logline.



I haven't ever had it trip by itself: I guess it might, if a big fish grabbed the handle (it's on a bridle, so it can't foul with weed)




You won't see it working, either .... unless you try it
Maybe I am being pessimistic about the forces.

I don't have a boat to try it on right now. Will crew to test in summer if someone wants.

Would like to see it.

----------------------------

The last time I peed over the side I was at anchor after a few beers. Standing on the transom steps watching my bubbles float away at tide speed I realized I tried swimming against that same tide earlier and could not do it. Even though the Gulf of Mexico in spring is pretty warm and there was an island very close by I realized it was just stupid.

A liter bottle with a no-leak cap for me.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 18:56   #125
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
Maybe I am being pessimistic about the forces.

I don't have a boat to try it on right now. Will crew to test in summer if someone wants.

Would like to see it.

----------------------------

The last time I peed over the side I was at anchor after a few beers. Standing on the transom steps watching my bubbles float away at tide speed I realized I tried swimming against that same tide earlier and could not do it. Even though the Gulf of Mexico in spring is pretty warm and there was an island very close by I realized it was just stupid.

A liter bottle with a no-leak cap for me.

Well, what I have decided is to turn off the auto-pilot and use the wheel lock to put the boat into a circle (not too tight!) before going forward. But I'm not opposed to turning the engine on at such points. I think that would greatly increase my chances of grabbing the drag line.

So the discussion has been helpful to me.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 22:57   #126
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: Sailor lost overboard

You can always piss down the cockpit drain. Of course, your aim will be poor, but if it is rough or raining, that doesn't matter.
__________________

Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 14:33   #127
cruiser

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Does anyone besides me deploy a long drag line in open seas? (I don't mean this as criticism of the people in this awful tragedy, I'm just curious about how common they are)
No.

I'm a diver, and having used just such a line, in open ocean, to work my way back to a dive boat that was standing still, I'm aware that it won't work. It's magical thinking off a boat at sea.
__________________
Jammer Six is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 15:17   #128
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
No.

I'm a diver, and having used just such a line, in open ocean, to work my way back to a dive boat that was standing still, I'm aware that it won't work. It's magical thinking off a boat at sea.
Maybe it was all your diving gear? I had no problem.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 15:27   #129
Registered User
 
LEOCAT66's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Slidell, LA. USA
Boat: William Atkin Cutter
Posts: 203
Images: 2
Re: Sailor lost overboard

We have an easily deployed, six step, from the water, or from the boat, transom ladder. From the end of the boom we have a large snatch block, with a line leading to the deck, through another large snatch block which leads to and is winched by three speed Lewmar #48 main winches. Serious power, but slow. A man over board pole is at the ready with double horseshoe rings. We always wear harness and inflatable offshore jackets, with lights, in foul weather or at night. In addition we keep a monkeys fist throw line in the cockpit. If coastal cruising we always tow the hard dingy far astern with floating tow line. Jack lines are always set up and used accordingly.

Certainly not the total answer, nothing is, and we are always looking for improvements and suggestions from others as to what works for them.
__________________
LEOCAT66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 15:33   #130
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEOCAT66 View Post
We have an easily deployed, six step, from the water, or from the boat, transom ladder. From the end of the boom we have a large snatch block, with a line leading to the deck, through another large snatch block which leads to and is winched by three speed Lewmar #48 main winches. Serious power, but slow. A man over board pole is at the ready with double horseshoe rings. We always wear harness and inflatable offshore jackets, with lights, in foul weather or at night. In addition we keep a monkeys fist throw line in the cockpit. If coastal cruising we always tow the hard dingy far astern with floating tow line. Jack lines are always set up and used accordingly.

Certainly not the total answer, nothing is, and we are always looking for improvements and suggestions from others as to what works for them.

That's the best plan I think -- multiple preventions, multiple solutions, and a way for a lightweight to get a heavyweight back on board.

I don't know if the fellow who found he couldn't get back to the boat with a dragline noted, but putting figure eight loops in mine makes a HUGE difference in how usable it is.

Without a way to get the person back on board, there's not much point ...
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 15:54   #131
Registered User
 
LEOCAT66's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Slidell, LA. USA
Boat: William Atkin Cutter
Posts: 203
Images: 2
Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
That's the best plan I think -- multiple preventions, multiple solutions, and a way for a lightweight to get a heavyweight back on board.

I don't know if the fellow who found he couldn't get back to the boat with a dragline noted, but putting figure eight loops in mine makes a HUGE difference in how usable it is.

Without a way to get the person back on board, there's not much point ...
So right, must have a way for the smaller person to retrieve the larger person. We have decided that if the winch is not the answer, the admiral should have the option to take the line forward to the drum on the Sea Tiger windlass, even more power. We are working on that issue at this time. Hope we never have the need when a serious sea is running.
__________________
LEOCAT66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 16:20   #132
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEOCAT66 View Post
So right, must have a way for the smaller person to retrieve the larger person. We have decided that if the winch is not the answer, the admiral should have the option to take the line forward to the drum on the Sea Tiger windlass, even more power. We are working on that issue at this time. Hope we never have the need when a serious sea is running.

This thread has been so useful. I'm thinking that I could have a block and tackle set up already attached to the toe rail, ready to be latched on to a line looped around the boom, with a 5:1 ratio, and of course a life sling. I have a great drop down ladder -- I have a physical limitation in that my legs are not strong (mild CP) and I can get up that ladder with ease, so I have no concern about the ladder, but I keep thinking about the man with the terribly broken leg in the Venice marina. He managed to get himself up a good ladder and into the cockpit (where, fortuitously, there was a cell phone) -- only reason he lived to tell the story. I wonder how many people could do that? I don't see any point in having a life sling without some way to hoist the person on.

Then as I'm thinking about this, what if there are two people, and the person on the boat gets injured dragging the injured person in the water back aboard?

Whatever we do has to protect everyone.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 17:11   #133
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
A sugar scoop stern design, plus a decent ladder attached to that is the best chance to get back aboard. With some swells, you don't even need the ladder.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 18:12   #134
Registered User
 
scotty c-m's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: catalina 400 MKII
Posts: 188
Re: Sailor lost overboard

Lots of good ideas. Here's how it works for me:

* All people on board should have some idea of man overboard procedures. Anyone sailing as regular crew should know basic (or more) procedures. I go over these in my orientation talk before each voyage. Periodic drills with my wife.

* When single-handing I'm always tethered in. Jack lines are rigged. If I'm by myself it would be hard to get back aboard, but it gives me a chance. If not, my wife has something to bury. Best not to go overboard! Hold on as if your life depends on it (which it does).

* At night or in adverse conditions (a judgement call of wind and wave conditions) all crew are tethered - even in the cockpit. This never replaces a safe attitude and "One hand for the ship, one hand for yourself".

* I bought an outboard hoist and rigged it with a snatch block. I can deploy my LifeSling and then rig it through the block to an electric winch. I have a bit of a sugar scoop (if not I would build a swim step) and a ladder. This set up allows me several options for retrieving a person overboard.

* I don't pee over the side. A bucket does the trick. I also have one of those bottles that hospitals use.

* Trailing a line has advantages, but a huge liability if it fouls the rudder or prop. This can be especially true if the engine is used to rescue a man overboard. I choose not to use one.

A person going overboard is a really serious situation, right up there with fire, and water on the floorboards! Thinking through scenarios (like we're doing here) and practicing skills create the attitude of safety that can give us an extra edge. Nothing will save you if your time is up, but a little luck is always welcome.
__________________
scotty c-m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 18:30   #135
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty c-m View Post
Lots of good ideas. Here's how it works for me:

* All people on board should have some idea of man overboard procedures. Anyone sailing as regular crew should know basic (or more) procedures. I go over these in my orientation talk before each voyage. Periodic drills with my wife.

* When single-handing I'm always tethered in. Jack lines are rigged. If I'm by myself it would be hard to get back aboard, but it gives me a chance. If not, my wife has something to bury. Best not to go overboard! Hold on as if your life depends on it (which it does).

* At night or in adverse conditions (a judgement call of wind and wave conditions) all crew are tethered - even in the cockpit. This never replaces a safe attitude and "One hand for the ship, one hand for yourself".

* I bought an outboard hoist and rigged it with a snatch block. I can deploy my LifeSling and then rig it through the block to an electric winch. I have a bit of a sugar scoop (if not I would build a swim step) and a ladder. This set up allows me several options for retrieving a person overboard.

* I don't pee over the side. A bucket does the trick. I also have one of those bottles that hospitals use.

* Trailing a line has advantages, but a huge liability if it fouls the rudder or prop. This can be especially true if the engine is used to rescue a man overboard. I choose not to use one.

A person going overboard is a really serious situation, right up there with fire, and water on the floorboards! Thinking through scenarios (like we're doing here) and practicing skills create the attitude of safety that can give us an extra edge. Nothing will save you if your time is up, but a little luck is always welcome.

If you use a floating line it will not foul anything. IMO people should tow dinghies with floating lines as well. With a regular line, if the distance shortens significantly between your stern and the dinghy, there's a loop of line in the water.
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lost, overboard

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:41.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.