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Old 05-05-2013, 17:03   #106
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
OK: here's some quick thoughts on how to rig a trailing line to trip an autopilot.

If it's an industrial unit, and I didn't have the chops to do it myself, I would take it to a competent repairer.

I would instruct them to add a pair of terminals which had to remain closed-circuit, or else the unit would apply helm hard-over, and stay there until the contacts were re-closed.

A deluxe approach would be to have two such inputs: one for starboard tack and one for port.

A waterproof, environment proof, NO (Normally Open) limit switch(es) in the lazarette would be externally biased to the closed condition, and rigged to trip and open the circult when the trailing line was pulled, using a reliable toggle. (This is probably the most fail-safe approach, but I'm shooting from the hip here, so apply some critical analysis before adopting)

Another approach (for any pilot with a hydraulic ram) is to add a relay to the control circuit the hydraulic valve which switches it the spool to the 'all ports open' position, handing control back to the wheel. If this boat will not immediately round up in this condition (and many cruising boats will not), it will need a biasing load. There will be plenty of force available from the trailing line to do this.

If the wheel's already fitted with a central drum for wind-vane steering, then the tripline can be wrapped around this, otherwise you will have to add something. It needn't be a proper drum: for these purposes, it would be sufficient to (say) have aft-facing mushroom-like knobs strapped to the spokes to simulate a skeletal drum.

For a tiller pilot, the method explained further up this thread works well, except for the rare boat which will continue on course with the helm free. In this case, it's simply a matter of looping a bungee (rubber tubing works well) over the tiller, or better still rigging the trailing line so that tension on it, having tripped away the pilot, pulls the tiller across.

I usually manage to do without an autopilot sailing hard on the wind by balancing the sail plan (unless the wind is variable).

In such cases, I rig the tripline to pull out a toggle which releases the tiller-immobilising line on the windward side (relating this to a tiller, but the same principles can be applied to a wheel) before the tension in the line pulls the tiller across to leeward.

Generally speaking, the key with toggles is to arrange them so the force removing the toggle pin is at right angles to the force the toggle was resisting, prior to being tripped. And to minimise friction and embeddability: use a hard plastic like PETP (acetal is OK but mind the UV rating- preferably black).

Wheel pilots of the toothed belt drive persuasion, with 'consumer' or 'prosumer' housings, are perhaps the biggest challenge: here a mechanical solution might be the best option, which trips the belt tensioning provision, enabling the trailing line to apply bias to the driven pulley.

I personally see the main use of trailing lines, (always as a last-resort backstop to rigorous use of tethers), being for a boat which is EFFECTIVELY singlehanding: in other words, only one person is on watch while the other (if there is another) sleeps.

And it has to be drummed into that other person that, if the tripline self-rescue fails, the first thing they must do on reaching the deck is to cut the line, which should be fitted with a sinker a few feet aft of the transom for obvious reasons.

I'm prepared to field PMs in moderation, if anyone wants to knock around specific ideas on this.
I am still trying to figure out how you are going to set the trip line tension. The pull force on it will vary greatly. In many conditions/instances it will be pulling harder than if someone was hanging on - just by itself.

Just playing devils advocate here.

Also ( have done this) when one falls in the water and grabs a line that is moving at 5-7 knots one gets to hold on to it for maybe one second. It is then ripped from the grasp. Holding on to it IMO is.....well.....fugeddaboudit. Maybe, just maybe, that quick jerk with an adrenaline grip will trip it ass-uming the trigger pressure will release as intended.

And consider that if the trailing line is there all the time and it is not perfect as to when it will trigger the heave-to, it would be disconcerting to do anything on the boat knowing that at any moment the boat could, without warning, round up suddenly.

I like the concept. Especially saving oneself (even more especially if it were me ) but I don't see it working.
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Old 05-05-2013, 17:29   #107
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pirate Re: Sailor lost overboard

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I am still trying to figure out how you are going to set the trip line tension. The pull force on it will vary greatly. In many conditions/instances it will be pulling harder than if someone was hanging on - just by itself.

Just playing devils advocate here.

Also ( have done this) when one falls in the water and grabs a line that is moving at 5-7 knots one gets to hold on to it for maybe one second. It is then ripped from the grasp. Holding on to it IMO is.....well.....fugeddaboudit. Maybe, just maybe, that quick jerk with an adrenaline grip will trip it ass-uming the trigger pressure will release as intended.

And consider that if the trailing line is there all the time and it is not perfect as to when it will trigger the heave-to, it would be disconcerting to do anything on the boat knowing that at any moment the boat could, without warning, round up suddenly.

I like the concept. Especially saving oneself (even more especially if it were me ) but I don't see it working.
I set it up once on my 1st boat... but when actually sailing I soon came to the conclusion that if I went over board I'd never make it to the line in time so never bothered again. The recovery time from the disorientation and shock would take to long.. and I'm a fairly good swimmer.
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Old 05-05-2013, 17:33   #108
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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I am still trying to figure out how you are going to set the trip line tension. The pull force on it will vary greatly. In many conditions/instances it will be pulling harder than if someone was hanging on - just by itself.

Just playing devils advocate here.

Also ( have done this) when one falls in the water and grabs a line that is moving at 5-7 knots one gets to hold on to it for maybe one second. It is then ripped from the grasp. Holding on to it IMO is.....well.....fugeddaboudit. Maybe, just maybe, that quick jerk with an adrenaline grip will trip it ass-uming the trigger pressure will release as intended.

And consider that if the trailing line is there all the time and it is not perfect as to when it will trigger the heave-to, it would be disconcerting to do anything on the boat knowing that at any moment the boat could, without warning, round up suddenly.

I like the concept. Especially saving oneself (even more especially if it were me ) but I don't see it working.

Everyone agrees that one can't hold on to a line traiing a boat doing 7 kt. And, "rounding up" and "heaving to" aren't the same thing.

For myself, I would not rewire my wheel pilot just to make a drag line work. I know how I sail, and I'm very unlikely to be forward, by myself, with the boat doing 7 kt. I'm not in that much of a hurry, and I know I'm a lot more likely to land in the water moving forward of the cockpit than in the cockpit (assuming no rogue waves, etc.) So it's a matter of using the tools one has intelligently.

ALL THAT SAID, if someone went off my boat unexpectedly the first thing I would do would be press the MOB button. Second would be turn off the wheel pilot. As I've said before, I slow the boat down before going forward when I'm by myself. I leave just enough speed to keep the boat poined wheren I want it to point. Believe me, that minimum speed is not 7 kt -- or even 5. Another option is to slow the boat and leave her circling. One can't depend 100% on gatgets and buttons to save oneself.

I don't think it makes any sense to try to make a drag line work cooperatively with some kind of autopilot. I also think it's foolish to start moving around the boat if single-handing while the boat is moving along at 7 knots.

These would be some reasons why a drag line might look like an option for me, but not someone else. Take the best (for you) and leave the rest, and all that.
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Old 05-05-2013, 17:37   #109
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As an experienced power boater on private yachts traveling all over, but a newbie at sailing. I think we have agreed the trail line as a bad idea. I would like to more about what some of the experienced blue water cruisers do to stay on the boat. (bluewater) crossing oceans... The ones who have been there done that. Thanks
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Old 05-05-2013, 17:45   #110
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I feel sorry for the man who lost his life by falling over board, I am one who was a drift at sea 70 miles off of Mono Islands Purto Rico for 6 hrs on a drift dive gone wrong. The man fell over board for reasons no one knows. So How do we stay on board so we dont become like him and the many others who have been lost at sea.
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Old 05-05-2013, 18:06   #111
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pirate Re: Sailor lost overboard

I might well be like him one day... I rely on my mobility, reactions and strength.. and situational awareness to work on deck.. including going up front in any weather if there's a need to..
If its a long blow I've usually gone to a shortie wetsuit and windproof for topside work.. but that's it..
No tether.. no PFD..
But I understand their purpose and encourage others to use them.

Health Warning; do not try this at home it could seriously shorten your life..
Its a personal choice... sorta like jumping of a roof and each floor you go past folk can hear you say.. "So far.. so good"
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Old 05-05-2013, 18:06   #112
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

Autumn Winds, if you search back in this thread, maybe p. 4 or 5, someone referenced an article by evan starzinger, that should get you going very well. Evan has really good sense, and heaps of experience in high latitudes, and he keeps on thinking about his experiences and learning from them.
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Old 05-05-2013, 18:31   #113
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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As an experienced power boater on private yachts traveling all over, but a newbie at sailing. I think we have agreed the trail line as a bad idea. I would like to more about what some of the experienced blue water cruisers do to stay on the boat. (bluewater) crossing oceans... The ones who have been there done that. Thanks
Well, no, we haven't all agreed that it's a bad idea. I think we've agreed that it won't solve all problems under all circumstances, but for me, and how I sail my boat, I see no down side and potential benefits. I didn't just dream this up -- it was recommended to me by a retired marine architect who has done a whole lotta sailing in his life including more than 25 years living aboard. A lot of people here have thought up reasons it might not work under one circumstance or another, but it's not "the one and only solution for all things. This idea came from someone who has "been there and done that." But if you read the thread, people have talked about lots of approaches.

One thing that really flew under the radar was a "throw stick," a floating pole you throw out to mark where the person went overboard. They're much easier to keep an eye on than something that's right on the surface of the water.
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Old 05-05-2013, 19:35   #114
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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That's why we're here... for the story's...
Flesh out the suggestions/ideas... makes em more memorable and interesting..
It was January here in California and I needed to move my boat from Santa Cruz to Halfmoon Bay. I set out at 5am, single handing in the dark and 40 degrees F. By mornings light I was 3 miles off Ano Nuevo. Great White capital of the west coast due to the Sea Lion breeding ground. I was drinking a gallon of hot coffee to stay alert and warm at the helm. Well, you know after a couple of hours, I needed to relieve myself. I was harnessed in and went to the rail to do my bussiness...tether too short. Ok...I'll unclip and reclip on the lifeline...Ok...wait a minute...Let me undo the foul weather jacket, open the suspenders, undo the jeans...you know the drill. Oh damn...that zipper is stuck...Ok...there we go. Except, I forgot to re-clip in all the hoopla. There was almost no wind, so I was motoring at 4-5 kts. The auto pilot on with a course set for 3 miles off Halfmoon Bay. I had the main up as a riding sail to steady the boat in the swells.
So during the duty at hand, the main back-winded and the end of the boom grazed my neck. 2"s more forward and I would have been in the water watching my boat motor its way to Pt. Reyes while I bled in the Great White water. I wonder at times what would have taken me...Hypothermia or a Great White. Either way, it's a hell of a way to go.

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The story up on my blog right now is about a guy who made a big mistake boarding a boat and ended up in the water with a badly broken leg. He got himself to the stern of the boat, and the owner had the ladder tied up so that a tug on a line would drop it down. THEN the crucial thing was that the ladder was long enough, went deep enough into the water that he was able to get on it even badly injured. Managed to drag himslf up and into the cockpit.

Fortunately he threw his backpack into the cockpit before trying to board, so his cell phone didn't go in the water with him. He was able to get it out and call 911.

Those two things saved his life because a piece of bone had severed his femoral artery. He was bleeding to death. True story. I know the guy, he told me the story (and showed me the huge surgery scar on his thigh) last Wednesday.
My stern ladder extends 3 feet into the water and is fastened 18" from the rail with an extra Wilcox-Crittenton fold-down step 6" from the rail.
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Old 05-05-2013, 19:53   #115
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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It was January here in California and I needed to move my boat from Santa Cruz to Halfmoon Bay. I set out at 5am, single handing in the dark and 40 degrees F. By mornings light I was 3 miles off Ano Nuevo. Great White capital of the west coast due to the Sea Lion breeding ground. I was drinking a gallon of hot coffee to stay alert and warm at the helm. Well, you know after a couple of hours, I needed to relieve myself. I was harnessed in and went to the rail to do my bussiness...tether too short. Ok...I'll unclip and reclip on the lifeline...Ok...wait a minute...Let me undo the foul weather jacket, open the suspenders, undo the jeans...you know the drill. Oh damn...that zipper is stuck...Ok...there we go. Except, I forgot to re-clip in all the hoopla. There was almost no wind, so I was motoring at 4-5 kts. The auto pilot on with a course set for 3 miles off Halfmoon Bay. I had the main up as a riding sail to steady the boat in the swells.
So during the duty at hand, the main back-winded and the end of the boom grazed my neck. 2"s more forward and I would have been in the water watching my boat motor its way to Pt. Reyes while I bled in the Great White water. I wonder at times what would have taken me...Hypothermia or a Great White. Either way, it's a hell of a way to go.


My stern ladder extends 3 feet into the water and is fastened 18" from the rail with an extra Wilcox-Crittenton fold-down step 6" from the rail.

I bet I could walk the docks at my club and not find one in 20 ladders that could really save you if you were by yourself and hurt in the water, but the autopilot really does put a new wrinkle in it.

I'm thinking, to learn from your experience, center up the sail before trying to answer nature's call, slow it down (already do that) -- and put it in a circle. My NA friend was saved once after he went over because his girlfriend turned their boat around 180ļ -- in the fog, must have taken a good compass reading, and he was able to grab the dinghy they were towing.

It really is worth it to think these things through, no reason I couldn't practice doing the things I could do that would increase the odds that I could get back to my boat. Still, while I really enjoy sailing with others, I enjoy single-handing too. I think it markedly improved my sailing skills to have to do it all myself.
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Old 05-05-2013, 20:31   #116
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

The only boat handling I've taught my wife is how to tack over without touching any lines and letting the boat heave to. For just that case. I really feel for her and him, but mostly her as she has to live with it for the rest of her life. sad
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Old 06-05-2013, 13:37   #117
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

A couple of the examples raise another important consideration. Assuming you ARE tethered when you go overboard or that the remaining crew can get the boat back to you, CAN YOU GET BACK ON BOARD?

Many center cockpit, high freeboard sailboats would make it very difficult to get a crew member back aboard. Older designs with long overhangs and aft cockpits might also be difficult.

One of the criteria I am looking for for a cruising boat is ease of getting back on board when in the water. Not primarily for safety reasons, but because we are divers. I'm twice the size of my wife and she could never lift me out of the water without some mechanical assist, if I was disabled. Many of the older cruising boats don't make it very ease to get back on board because of the basic design.

A good reason to tow a dingy although I wouldn't want to count on actually getting into the dingy. At my age and size it isn't a pretty sight...
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Old 06-05-2013, 13:43   #118
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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A couple of the examples raise another important consideration. Assuming you ARE tethered when you go overboard or that the remaining crew can get the boat back to you, CAN YOU GET BACK ON BOARD?

Many center cockpit, high freeboard sailboats would make it very difficult to get a crew member back aboard. Older designs with long overhangs and aft cockpits might also be difficult.

One of the criteria I am looking for for a cruising boat is ease of getting back on board when in the water. Not primarily for safety reasons, but because we are divers. I'm twice the size of my wife and she could never lift me out of the water without some mechanical assist, if I was disabled. Many of the older cruising boats don't make it very ease to get back on board because of the basic design.

A good reason to tow a dingy although I wouldn't want to count on actually getting into the dingy. At my age and size it isn't a pretty sight...
Again...an easily deployable good quality boarding ladder properly installed.
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Old 06-05-2013, 14:47   #119
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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I am still trying to figure out how you are going to set the trip line tension. The pull force on it will vary greatly. In many conditions/instances it will be pulling harder than if someone was hanging on - just by itself.
I don't understand your point. Perhaps you need to try trailing a line. There's no speed at which a bare line, even with a handle, comes remotely close to the force required to drag a human being, especially the force required to accelerate them suddenly from zero to, say, three knots. If the boat's going really slowly, you jerk the line. If the speed is such that even that doesn't develop enough force, you'll be able to pull yourself back to the boat.

Have you ever handled the line on a ski boat? Even if you haven't: here's a thought experiment which might work for you:

You can retrieve the line by hand rather easily when the skier falls off, even at twenty knots, while the driver circles back. The lightweight handle skips along the surface of the water.

Good luck hand-holding it at three knots with a skier hanging on, though....

The differential between the force at any speed on a bare line, and the sort of single heroic tug a person can exert whose alternative is drowning, is probably several orders of magnitude.

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Also ( have done this) when one falls in the water and grabs a line that is moving at 5-7 knots one gets to hold on to it for maybe one second. It is then ripped from the grasp. Holding on to it IMO is ..... well ..... fugeddaboudit. Maybe, just maybe, that quick jerk with an adrenaline grip will trip it ass-uming the trigger pressure will release as intended.
You don't have to hold on, it's the jerk which matters. That will cause the boat to slow down, then (if you lost your grip) you swim to the rope....
Sure, there will be odd cases where it won't work.
And nobody to sue....

But you'd possibly be surprised how hard you can hang on. Once again, think of waterskiing.
Most people can hang on hard enough to get up, even puny kids with arms like noodles: it's the balance which is harder to come by, not the strength.
And you don't have to be superhuman to manage repeated attempts at a deepwater start on a single ski, which requires more bollard pull than most 75hp outboards can deliver.

The following story was not unique, in the days when all voyaging boats trailed a log line: I've read of several such instances, and heard first-hand of one. Maybe sailors had a stronger grip, in olden times ... But you have to remember that a log line is thin cord, spinning rapidly: hardly optimal.

Case 6. During the Transpacific race of 1951. On one boat a crewmember was standing on the end of the main boom (he had no business being there), when the boom slatted and shook him loose into the water.
The boat was only making about 5 knots and, as he drifted astern, he was able to grab the taffrail log, which held him. ..... Since the taffrail log pin held, the crew was able to pull him close aboard simply by retrieving the logline.

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And consider that if the trailing line is there all the time and it is not perfect as to when it will trigger the heave-to, it would be disconcerting to do anything on the boat knowing that at any moment the boat could, without warning, round up suddenly.
I haven't ever had it trip by itself: I guess it might, if a big fish grabbed the handle (it's on a bridle, so it can't foul with weed)


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I like the concept. Especially saving oneself (even more especially if it were me ) but I don't see it working.
You won't see it working, either .... unless you try it
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Old 06-05-2013, 15:05   #120
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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.... I set out at 5am, single handing in the dark and 40 degrees F. ....I needed to relieve myself. ...So during the duty at hand, the main back-winded and the end of the boom grazed my neck ....
Cripes, mate, that makes the hairs stand up just thinking about it.

Tell you what: you need to be introduced to the Southern Ocean Solo Sailor's Best Friend

This is a disposable plastic milk or juice bottle (1 litre size is ideal, unless you have a bladder which would rival the Hindenburg).

You need NEVER pee over the side again.

With lots of practice, (and a retrieval lanyard), any anatomically correct male ... or even a pale imitation like me ... can pee safely and comfortably while wearing several layers of thermal gear inside his bib foulweather pants and full-dress foulweather jacket complete with polo-neck + 'grim reaper' hood with integral harness ...

by sticking it down the neckhole and wriggling seductively for half an hour - all while helming at 15knots down ski-slope greybeards, if push comes to shove and needs must.

If you can't reach your bottle from the helm, as a bumper sticker once told me: "Real Sailors do it in their seaboots"

And, in the Southern Ocean, you will also have such a bottle permanently at the ready in your sleeping bag, providing, for zero outlay, more luxury than a shag-carpeted ensuite at the Hilton.

But wait, there's more: it can then be used to keep your feet warm for five minutes.... bliss!
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