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Old 03-05-2013, 11:41   #76
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

Always very sad to hear of accidents such as this. Yes, its easy to say they can be avoided but at the end of the day there is so much that can happen perhaps we are wise to always mentally run through what we would do in a MOB situation as regularly as we go out to sea if not more often. Having one experienced crew and 1 or 2 inexperienced crew is about the same as being solo. All we can do is make repeated practice of MOB drills. After all, this should be as much fun as just sailing from A-B or out and back.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:53   #77
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
I would be interested in hearing how to rig a line to a wheel and how it is tensioned to release the steering/autopilot to turn the boat. I would think that just while sailing the tension would vary from 0 to "a lot". And as conditions worsened it would vary from 0 to "a whole lot". How is this accomplished?

Why assume a drag line can be all things in all situations? It's one option of many No one has presented this as the be all and end all. I explained how it worked. It would not have worked if the tiller had had a tiller pilot working -- that is, it would not have heaved the boat to. I don't have auto pilot. I have a wheel pilot, and it does not work in rough water, so in rough water it would likely not be on. Since I've mentioned all kinds of other strategies as well, go ahead and pick this apart. Try it if you want, scoff at if it you want, but I'm not going to bother with anything that suggests it has to work perfectly under all circumstances in order to have any value at all. I don't just use it when I'm by myself. If you don't like the idea, don't bother with it.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:58   #78
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Rakuflames,

You asked if anyone else trails a long line at sea--read the above accounts to see why this is a really bad idea.

I'm sorry -- did you think I don't know that lines that sink and spinning propellers are a bad combination?

Did you completely miss the "floating" part? I agree that lines that sink and propellers can make a bad situation much, much worse. Clearly in those situations, no one was in charge, and everyone was acting on their own. Those situations were a failure of leadership as much as anyone else. Bib boats, big crews, out to sea, there should be a second in command, and if the captain is in the water, everyone should not only do what second in command direct, but look to him or her for directions. People should not just be randomly throwing lines in the water.

Poor leadership and not thinking through what one is doing in an emergency -- THAT's a bad plan.

It doesn't sound to me as if any of those lines thrown were "floaters." They were "sinkers."

It alo sounds as if those boats went out without any clear MOB plans.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:00   #79
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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You missed the fact that my response was not directed to you or any of your posts! In fact, you may be better served taking in and processing the good information here in CF than repeating yourself post after post. Thank you.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this was a public conversation, currently about something I brought up. I think you should give me a sign regarding when you want me to shut up about what I did on my boat and why. If you want to direct a specific message to a specific person ... well, I would use email for that, but that's just me. Thank YOU.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:02   #80
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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My wife and I double-handed for 90,000 miles. I usually ran the boat, but she insisted on being trained to start/stop the engine, come up to an object in the waer, navigate with the GPS and its MOB function, furl/drop the sails, and use the radio. I wasn't worried about it, but her biggest fear was that I would go overboard and she wouldn't know what to do. She is probably smarter than I am.

iI don't know about that, but you have your concerns, and she has hers. You know you could go back and get her, she wants to extend the same courtesy to you. You must be a pretty good husband!
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:17   #81
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

People are getting "techy" and I think we should drop it. I'll be first.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:42   #82
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Why assume a drag line can be all things in all situations? It's one option of many No one has presented this as the be all and end all. I explained how it worked. It would not have worked if the tiller had had a tiller pilot working -- that is, it would not have heaved the boat to. I don't have auto pilot. I have a wheel pilot, and it does not work in rough water, so in rough water it would likely not be on. Since I've mentioned all kinds of other strategies as well, go ahead and pick this apart. Try it if you want, scoff at if it you want, but I'm not going to bother with anything that suggests it has to work perfectly under all circumstances in order to have any value at all. I don't just use it when I'm by myself. If you don't like the idea, don't bother with it.
Jesus!


Thanks for not one bit of information.

All I asked for was information on how it actually works because I can't envision it.

Here is one bit though. A "wheel pilot" is a form of autopilot.

And from my observation (again ) you ignore others experience and experienced advice.

I have held a rope behind a boat (with no knots, knots, loops and an end loop) at various speeds. No way to hold on at any speed for long.

That is why I asked how it works.

Thanks for nothing!
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Old 03-05-2013, 13:44   #83
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
People are getting "techy" and I think we should drop it. I'll be first.
Yeha. I was thinking the same exact thing.

I keep imagining the poor woman's experience of looking at the face and eyes of her fiancee as he drifts away, and being unable to do anything - an image that will most likely replay for the rest of her life.

I don't want to disrespect or marginalize that empathy with a lot of second guessing or "should dos".
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Old 03-05-2013, 13:56   #84
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Yeha. I was thinking the same exact thing.

I keep imagining the poor woman's experience of looking at the face and eyes of her fiancee as he drifts away, and being unable to do anything - an image that will most likely replay for the rest of her life.

I don't want to disrespect or marginalize that empathy with a lot of second guessing or "should dos".
I agree wholeheartedly. So easy to armchair criticize and comment with the exact science of hindsight. May he be found alive (hope beyond hope), but if not R.I.P knowing you were doing what you loved.
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Old 03-05-2013, 14:26   #85
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
Jesus!


Thanks for not one bit of information.

All I asked for was information on how it actually works because I can't envision it.

Here is one bit though. A "wheel pilot" is a form of autopilot.

And from my observation (again ) you ignore others experience and experienced advice.

I have held a rope behind a boat (with no knots, knots, loops and an end loop) at various speeds. No way to hold on at any speed for long.

That is why I asked how it works.

Thanks for nothing!

I knew you would say that. I have described how it works. I think it's very clear that with the wheel locked (as it would be if the wheel pilot were engaged), it could not turn the wheel. I really don't think you needed me to tell you that.

What you MISSED -- I don't know why -- was that i have listened VERY carefully to someone -- the highly experienced marine architect I know well, who I have sailed with and who I know very well. Yes, I listened to him and not people I don't actually know speculating about something they haven't tried.

If you're offended by that, you're offended too easily IMO. I have used the thing; I have tested it; I have explained its limitations; and for whatever reason you aren't willing to acknowledge that. It's one of a whole bunch of strategies for staying safe, and as I have pointed out (now) multiple times, it isn't just for solo sailing. It makes it very easy for someone to go around and make that line available for someone else in the water.

You don't have to think it's a good idea, but using it as an excuse to rip on someone isn't very nice. And, I don't think it's very hard to envision a polypropelene line floating behind a boat. I think you could even envisio the figure 8 knots I described, and the floats with reflective tape on them. It's not hard to envision.

What I said is true. It is not one solution for every possible problem. it's not "the one safety thing" anyone should use. You don't even have to like the idea. But don't rip at me for listening to a highly skilled marine architect.
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Old 03-05-2013, 14:44   #86
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pirate Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
Jesus!


Thanks for not one bit of information.

All I asked for was information on how it actually works because I can't envision it.

Here is one bit though. A "wheel pilot" is a form of autopilot.

And from my observation (again ) you ignore others experience and experienced advice.

I have held a rope behind a boat (with no knots, knots, loops and an end loop) at various speeds. No way to hold on at any speed for long.

That is why I asked how it works.

Thanks for nothing!
Dunno how it would work with a wheel pilot but pretty easy to set up with a tiller pilot which was the original idea... tie the line to a strong point in the cockpit so it passes under the TP.. get some breaking line and attach it to your trailing line so there's a bit of slack on board then toss the rest over the stern..
The theory was when you grab the line and your weight comes on it snaps the thin line and the grab line snaps up and knocks the TP off its pin... the boat then rounds up into the wind...
Was touted back in the 70's as the single handers lifeline... however long keeled boats have a tendency to keep on trucking for quite a way... so it kinda died a death... still dredged up from time to time by us solo sailors as a blag to concerned friends and family
Maybe its time we pressured Raymarine etc to produce a remote with decent range and waterproof so if one goes over one can initiate a heave to which will at least head the boat back in our general direction..
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Old 03-05-2013, 14:52   #87
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Dunno how it would work with a wheel pilot but pretty easy to set up with a tiller pilot which was the original idea... tie the line to a strong point in the cockpit so it passes under the TP.. get some breaking line and attach it to your trailing line so there's a bit of slack on board then toss the rest over the stern..
The theory was when you grab the line and your weight comes on it snaps the thin line and the grab line snaps up and knocks the TP off its pin... the boat then rounds up into the wind...
Was touted back in the 70's as the single handers lifeline... however long keeled boats have a tendency to keep on trucking for quite a way... so it kinda died a death... still dredged up from time to time by us solo sailors as a blag to concerned friends and family
Maybe its time we pressured Raymarine etc to produce a remote with decent range and waterproof so if one goes over one can initiate a heave to which will at least head the boat back in our general direction..

In fact to me that's one of the scary things about using an auto pilot, or in my case, a wheel pilot -- talk about counting on the boat to keep on sailing away from you ...

If I have to go forward when by myself, I slow the boat down as much as I can and still have steerage before leaving the cockpit ... and by that I mean, pull the throttle back and wait for the boat to respond to it, or depower the sails, and again, give it time to slow down. But I suspect most people go off the boat when they least expected it and probably haven't done anything like that.

The story about the fellow I know who was saved by a really good stern ladder is up on my blog now. It isn't related to the awful accident that started this thread.
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Old 03-05-2013, 14:54   #88
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Dunno how it would work with a wheel pilot but pretty easy to set up with a tiller pilot which was the original idea... tie the line to a strong point in the cockpit so it passes under the TP.. get some breaking line and attach it to your trailing line so there's a bit of slack on board then toss the rest over the stern..
The theory was when you grab the line and your weight comes on it snaps the thin line and the grab line snaps up and knocks the TP off its pin... the boat then rounds up into the wind...
Was touted back in the 70's as the single handers lifeline... however long keeled boats have a tendency to keep on trucking for quite a way... so it kinda died a death... still dredged up from time to time by us solo sailors as a blag to concerned friends and family
Maybe its time we pressured Raymarine etc to produce a remote with decent range and waterproof so if one goes over one can initiate a heave to which will at least head the boat back in our general direction..
Now there is some perspective. I agree, come on, someone design something that will bring the boat straight back to the MOB automatically.
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Old 03-05-2013, 15:02   #89
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

There are lots of complicated and unreliable methods to set up systems that might allow a MOB to be retrieved, or might allow a boat to be stopped remotely, but there are lots of simple, robust, and reliable methods to stay onboard in the first place.
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Old 03-05-2013, 15:06   #90
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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There are lots of complicated and unreliable methods to set up systems that might allow a MOB to be retrieved, or might allow a boat to be stopped remotely, but there are lots of simple, robust, and reliable methods to stay onboard in the first place.
They are well documented. Insurance guards against negligence too. When all else fails, give me a new system that will bring the boat back to the solo sailor overboard anyday.
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