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Old 02-05-2013, 19:54   #46
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I'm glad that you thought it out, and it works for you. I would be reluctant to have any rope, including poly, hanging back where important parts of my boat are.

That being said, your solution gives you piece of mind, and does have some rational behind it. It is just one I could not endorse for reasons stated. Jacklines, tether points in the cockpit and short tether is what gives me piece of mind, and also thought out.

Well, it was designed and recommended by my friend the naval architect. He's well enough known that I really can't say a lot about all his chops, but he knows his stuff. He worries about jacklines, says the tether is long enough to drag you behind the boat without your having the ability to get back in -- but at least your body would be found with the boat -- there's a cheerful chap!

I have a tether and use it with my bluewater PFD, wrapped around the mast, if I have to do something at the mast in rough water. I do have to go to the mast to reef, but so far haven't had to do that in difficult circumstances. I have to go to the mast to set my lazy jack but could easily run that back to the cockpit, and will do that one of these days.

I haven't set a jackline yet on this boat but am thinking to do it as close to center as possible, and keep the tether short. Inconvenient but convenience isn't exactly the point ...

The drag line is a Plan C kind of thing -- but would make it easier to pick someone up.
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Old 02-05-2013, 20:35   #47
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Well, it was designed and recommended by my friend the naval architect. He's well enough known that I really can't say a lot about all his chops, but he knows his stuff. He worries about jacklines, says the tether is long enough to drag you behind the boat without your having the ability to get back in -- but at least your body would be found with the boat -- there's a cheerful chap!
The idea of a tether is to keep you inside the boat, not overboard. If you go overboard, the tether is too long, and his observations would likely be the result.

The best solution is if you need to move out of the cockpit is to have jacklines as close to the center line as possible, and the tether of a length that precludes ejection over the life lines.
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Old 02-05-2013, 21:33   #48
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
The idea of a tether is to keep you inside the boat, not overboard. If you go overboard, the tether is too long, and his observations would likely be the result.

The best solution is if you need to move out of the cockpit is to have jacklines as close to the center line as possible, and the tether of a length that precludes ejection over the life lines.
Exactly my (and my friend's) thought about it. Before I take this boat to Key West I will put a jackline on it, but it will be very close to center.

I told the story some time ago about a friend knocked away from the mast. he had his tether wrapped around the mast, but he still went through the life lines to his waist before it pulled him back.
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Old 03-05-2013, 00:11   #49
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

There's a compromise solution, which involving fitting fixed carabiners at crucial locations. Here's the rationale as I see it:

Centreline jacklines are indeed the gold standard. Sometimes it takes lateral thinking: maybe a jackline above deck level, for instance...

But some boats are hard to rig with centreline jacklines, and quite often (eg with centre cockpits) it requires creating multiple transition zones, where it's necessary to change from one jackline to another, possibly several times during a stern-to-bow transit.

Needless to say this is highly undesirable.

So here's one way of making not exactly a silk purse, but at least a strong brown paper bag, out of a sow's ear:

If the 'main arterial' jacklines have to run along the inboard edge of the sidedecks, what you can do is fit carabiners, lashed to strong points further inboard, at every working site: obviously at the mast, at the inner forestay, at the bow and stern, but there will be others on any given boat.

Ideally these would be screwgate carabiners, as the other sort can self-undo (although the chances and the likely consequences of them doing this, in this particular role, are so low that I think whether to screw them up could justifiably be a case-by-case choice)

The idea is this: when you arrive at a worksite, you don't unclip your tether from the jackline, you just go inboard to and flick the tether THROUGH the carabiner, (like a climber following up a pitch where someone else has led and installed protection).

It takes just a moment, compared to the usual juggling with twin tethers.

Unflicking it takes a couple of moments. And you're no worse off, at any point in the process, because you're still clipped to the jackline.

The result is that if you fall towards the toerail, your tether will haul the jackline INBOARD, towards where it would ideally be. You will be pulled up earlier, for a given length of tether, than if the jackline were on centre.

This is similar in concept to having fixed tethers at these locations, but tidier and a lot less prone to get tangled in running rigging -- or to clank on the deck and possibly put people at risk, having to go up and investigate strange noises in the middle of the storm-tossed night.

Furthermore they can stay there permanently (assuming they're sailing-grade material, rather than mountain-climbing grade) whereas fixed tethers will weather badly, particularly from UV, and require to either be taken in in good weather, or regularly replaced.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:24   #50
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

Blaa blaaa blaaaaaaa.
Train people, just train. Practice. Train. train.
Everybody on the boat offshore should know how to do everything.
We aren't perfect either. We start training next week.
Please train people. How in the hell are you going to know what to do if you don't practice? Seriously, do you just inherently know how to rescue a 200# unconscious person in terrible weather? I don't.
My wife was a USCG rescue swimmer. She rescued a bunch of people. We're not sure that she and my son can get my fat ass up on this boat. We're going to train.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:38   #51
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

In regards to dragging a poly-line behind the boat. I did that when I single handed years ago. It was 1/4" with a knot every 3 ft. if I needed a grip. It was over 100ft. long I think, maybe even 200. I would probably have a 50/50 chance of grabbing it.
If i do it again, I'll tie a slip knot from the line to the stern pulpit to the windvane pivot, in hopes of rounding the boat up.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:00   #52
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

A small point of clarification to my last post: The lashings for the fixed carabiners will need protection from the sun if they are not regularly replaced. One good option for jobs like this is self-amalgamating (black rubbery) tape, as used by professional electricians.

It's a wonder material on boats, and I might see if there's a more appropriate thread to extol the virtues. (I think there's currently one on cheap doohickeys, for instance)
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:14   #53
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pirate Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
What we do is often at least a little bit dangerous, but ... you can't hide safely at home. Most accidents happen at home!

I wouldn't mind leaving this world by having a stroke or heart attack while having a great sail ... but I don't want to drown in salt water. That sounds like an awful way to die to me.
Actually its not that bad....
It was a long time ago, I was 18 at the time and stationed with the Gibraltar Squadron..
the pumping out after they'd recovered me really sucked though...
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:49   #54
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

Yet another self-evident newbie demonstrating their inexperience
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:52   #55
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
There's a compromise solution, which involving fitting fixed carabiners at crucial locations. Here's the rationale as I see it:

Centreline jacklines are indeed the gold standard. Sometimes it takes lateral thinking: maybe a jackline above deck level, for instance...

But some boats are hard to rig with centreline jacklines, and quite often (eg with centre cockpits) it requires creating multiple transition zones, where it's necessary to change from one jackline to another, possibly several times during a stern-to-bow transit.

Needless to say this is highly undesirable.

So here's one way of making not exactly a silk purse, but at least a strong brown paper bag, out of a sow's ear:

If the 'main arterial' jacklines have to run along the inboard edge of the sidedecks, what you can do is fit carabiners, lashed to strong points further inboard, at every working site: obviously at the mast, at the inner forestay, at the bow and stern, but there will be others on any given boat.

Ideally these would be screwgate carabiners, as the other sort can self-undo (although the chances and the likely consequences of them doing this, in this particular role, are so low that I think whether to screw them up could justifiably be a case-by-case choice)

The idea is this: when you arrive at a worksite, you don't unclip your tether from the jackline, you just go inboard to and flick the tether THROUGH the carabiner, (like a climber following up a pitch where someone else has led and installed protection).

It takes just a moment, compared to the usual juggling with twin tethers.

Unflicking it takes a couple of moments. And you're no worse off, at any point in the process, because you're still clipped to the jackline.

The result is that if you fall towards the toerail, your tether will haul the jackline INBOARD, towards where it would ideally be. You will be pulled up earlier, for a given length of tether, than if the jackline were on centre.

This is similar in concept to having fixed tethers at these locations, but tidier and a lot less prone to get tangled in running rigging -- or to clank on the deck and possibly put people at risk, having to go up and investigate strange noises in the middle of the storm-tossed night.

Furthermore they can stay there permanently (assuming they're sailing-grade material, rather than mountain-climbing grade) whereas fixed tethers will weather badly, particularly from UV, and require to either be taken in in good weather, or regularly replaced.
Fortunately there's nothing to interfere with a centerline jackline on my boat. I don't like the idea of having to clip and unclip, possibly while having to carry something forward at the same time (you'd be going up there for some reason, some problem to solve). I trust carabiners. I don't trust the process of undoing that tether.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:55   #56
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
In regards to dragging a poly-line behind the boat. I did that when I single handed years ago. It was 1/4" with a knot every 3 ft. if I needed a grip. It was over 100ft. long I think, maybe even 200. I would probably have a 50/50 chance of grabbing it.
If i do it again, I'll tie a slip knot from the line to the stern pulpit to the windvane pivot, in hopes of rounding the boat up.

Exactly. On the boat it needs to be clipped to something that will turn the boat. On my old boat it was as simple as clipping it to the tiller. Yank on it, the boat turned, the jib backwinded, and she hove to -- just stopped dead in the water. I'm not so sure it will work as well with a wheel, but if it even slowed it down, that would be much better than nothing. But I put more than knots in. I put in figure 8 loops. I had to sew them in because of polyproplelene's tendency to do whatever it wants. I also coiled it and deploy it in sections. They make better polyproplelyne line now.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:57   #57
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Actually its not that bad....
It was a long time ago, I was 18 at the time and stationed with the Gibraltar Squadron..
the pumping out after they'd recovered me really sucked though...

Fresh water might not be that bad but salt water? Yuck.

Pumping you out sucked? Yuck yuck!
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:14   #58
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pirate Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Fresh water might not be that bad but salt water? Yuck.

Pumping you out sucked? Yuck yuck!
Oh the Med is pretty salty...
the RNP I kicked overboard as I came round would confirm that...
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:30   #59
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Floating Trail Lines. I dont understand how using a trail line will help. The other weekend while sailing in Tampa bay we were sailing 7 knots down wind. So thinking about it this morning and quickly doing the math (i could be off a little) we were traveling 10ft a second. If thats right then you have traveled more then 600ft in just one min. I dont see how any one could grab a line fast enough. Now I also know there are some pretty slow boats out there. Smiling. As far as line floating, just last weekend I spent more then an hour freeing a floating line from my rudder. I was pulling a tube behind my sailboat for my kids, made a turn to hit some waves and as my boat rocked the line got sucked under and jamed my rudder. Not good.... In fact it sucked bad. Just food for thought.... Good sailing, cheers
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:47   #60
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

Here is a great article on tethers and jacklines that our member erstarzinger is working on.

He references it in this thread.

I consider it a must read.
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