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Old 08-05-2013, 04:28   #151
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

Dave, you are quite correct, I am not a rescue expert. Wrong in thinking that I have any political leanings whatsoever. What I was saying, I thought, was that I did not want to make a decision if it was safe to rescue me or not. Nor did I want someone else to have to make that decision. It has always been my choice to be out there and up to me to get back, or not. This has been perfectly acceptable for 45 or so of the years that I have been sailing, for me and a lot of other folks, but now it is not.

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Old 08-05-2013, 04:57   #152
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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It has always been my choice to be out there and up to me to get back, or not. This has been perfectly acceptable for 45 or so of the years that I have been sailing, for me and a lot of other folks, but now it is not.
Sorry the RNLI has been rescuing people since 1824 and local groups were organising rescues before that. so 45 years is meaningless. All technology does is allow you to be found faster, ships had flares for example for over 100 years, a flare is simply a less techy EPIRB.

I dont agree its up to you to "do or die" which is what you are arguing, nor I suspect would your loved ones subscribe to that view.

We must assume that most people dont set out on a voyage with the intention of triggering a rescue, The sea can overwhelm lots of people and boats irrespective of ability, hence we have a moral duty to rescue them, and YOU have a moral duty to (a) do what you can to avoid rescue and (b) when you need it have the ability to minimise the risk to yourself and others ( carrying safety gear, training etc )

If you want to commit suicide, simply dont press the button, but thats not a reason to deny it to others. ( or to argue against safety regulations that require them)


Its got nothing to do with 'traditional' methods of navigation or silly arguments about traditional 'macho' methods of navigation and sailing


Sorry your argument is just like the nonsense 'seat belts' debate that was had many years ago.

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Old 08-05-2013, 05:02   #153
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

It is your right to not agree with me, so be it.

Coops.
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Old 08-05-2013, 05:16   #154
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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It is your right to not agree with me, so be it.
of course, its all opinion, buts what fact, is that in a modern society if you hurt yourself, whether intentional or not, and irrespective of whether you wish to die or not ( or dont wish to be 'rescued'), we do rescue you and nurse you back to health , whether thats a car accident you caused or you get into trouble offshore.

I for one , prefer that society, then one that leaves me on the side of teh road bleeding to death even if its my fault.!!

And obviously so do the vast majority of its citizens
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Old 08-05-2013, 05:22   #155
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pirate Re: Sailor lost overboard

Raku... Sorry but I have to disagree with your new theory of putting your auto pilot into a circling mode...
The changing angles to any sea are going to increase anyone's chance of slipping/falling... sails are going to be flapping about whacking you and flailing lines risk blinding you.. every few minutes will subject you to a gybe...
I'll stick to heaving to.. steady motion and safety for any foredeck work and wind and sea will have the end of your line at a more favourable angle to get to quicker... it'll drift right over you if you wait..
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:30   #156
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

I haven't read tyhis entire thread, but if Raku (or anyone else) has a 200 foot (meter) rope hanging off the back, she better be showing a long tow signal. If a boat goes behind her, her trailing rope will snag that boat's prop or rudder, causing a potentially serious situation.

If my props got tangled in someones "dragline", I would use language at them that is generally not heard in mixed company.

If you're that scared of faliing off, hook your tether to a system that will stop the boat, like a "dead man's cord" on outboards. How hard can it be?
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:43   #157
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Sorry the RNLI has been rescuing people since 1824 and local groups were organising rescues before that. so 45 years is meaningless. All technology does is allow you to be found faster, ships had flares for example for over 100 years, a flare is simply a less techy EPIRB.

I dont agree its up to you to "do or die" which is what you are arguing, nor I suspect would your loved ones subscribe to that view.

We must assume that most people dont set out on a voyage with the intention of triggering a rescue, The sea can overwhelm lots of people and boats irrespective of ability, hence we have a moral duty to rescue them, and YOU have a moral duty to (a) do what you can to avoid rescue and (b) when you need it have the ability to minimise the risk to yourself and others ( carrying safety gear, training etc )

If you want to commit suicide, simply dont press the button, but thats not a reason to deny it to others. ( or to argue against safety regulations that require them)


Its got nothing to do with 'traditional' methods of navigation or silly arguments about traditional 'macho' methods of navigation and sailing


Sorry your argument is just like the nonsense 'seat belts' debate that was had many years ago.

dave
Beyond the fact of how much we would miss Coops, there is the fact that his boat would then be out there going wherever the winds and waves sent it, not under control, a potential navigation hazard to others.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:48   #158
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pirate Re: Sailor lost overboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I haven't read tyhis entire thread, but if Raku (or anyone else) has a 200 foot (meter) rope hanging off the back, she better be showing a long tow signal. If a boat goes behind her, her trailing rope will snag that boat's prop or rudder, causing a potentially serious situation.

If my props got tangled in someones "dragline", I would use language at them that is generally not heard in mixed company.

If you're that scared of faliing off, hook your tether to a system that will stop the boat, like a "dead man's cord" on outboards. How hard can it be?
I'd doubt she'd do it in busy waters.. this tends to be more of an offshore tactic where traffic coming that close is unusual to say the least.. much like a towing log... though some Richard Heads (Zeus.. trying to be PC can be so offensive.. Sorry to all Richards) have been known to do it in their starter years..
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:54   #159
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Sorry the RNLI has been rescuing people since 1824 and local groups were organising rescues before that. so 45 years is meaningless. All technology does is allow you to be found faster, ships had flares for example for over 100 years, a flare is simply a less techy EPIRB.
Over here the RNLI are still in 1824 by relying on the "power" of Jesus .

Quote:
I dont agree its up to you to "do or die" which is what you are arguing, nor I suspect would your loved ones subscribe to that view.
That's rather presumptious .........not every person is addicted to keeping family members wrapped in cotton wool.

Quote:
The sea can overwhelm lots of people and boats irrespective of ability, hence we have a moral duty to rescue them, and YOU have a moral duty to (a) do what you can to avoid rescue and (b) when you need it have the ability to minimise the risk to yourself and others ( carrying safety gear, training etc )
Please don't subject me to your morals . The quid pro quo being that I won't subject you to mine - admittedly I don't have many , but apparently that in itself can be a problem for others .

I see being prepared and reducing risks to a level I am comfortable with simply as pragmatism and not a moral issue - what others think of my decisions is a GFYS thing. Others may need Cheeses to guide them, I prefer own brain.

Personally I have no problem if there were no rescue services. Don't like it? Don't go. Seemples. But I don't object on principal to folks providing them (privately or publically funded), just don't do so as a tool for claiming a moral high ground or the right to dictate to others. Would I use the Cheeses Navy if I was in trouble?, probably - but that's because I am a pragmatist . If no one around I would go glug - sh#t happens, if I wanted "safe" I would stick to Disneyland.

If I was suicidal I would take up golf .
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:18   #160
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

Hmmm, all very interesting. A lot of words ... and some moral philosophising...

All I can say is that my true loved ones (my woman and my kid) are on board with me. We cross oceans with no EPIRB, no working SSB and no sat phone. If we f**k up, we fix it, do without, use the spare or die. Calling for mama does not even enter into the equation.

Yes, there is a SPOT but that is only for coastal cruising and is more to do with social media than rescue crap.

I would be very happy if there was no EPIRB, no SSB, no sat phone and no SAR. The anchorages would be less crowded and the sailors would be more like they used to be.

But that is just us. For better or for worse, we are members of a far larger society than our little family and so we have to buckle down to the requirements of that society.

The LAW. The REGULATIONS. The NANNY STATE.

Ho hum.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:42   #161
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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I'd doubt she'd do it in busy waters.. this tends to be more of an offshore tactic where traffic coming that close is unusual to say the least.. much like a towing log... though some Richard Heads (Zeus.. trying to be PC can be so offensive.. Sorry to all Richards) have been known to do it in their starter years..

I'm glad you 'doubt that' since I've stated that multiple times.

"Starter years" isn't always the best measure -- if you've been taking a boat out or on someone else's every 2 - 3 days for a year, you're way ahead of most people who have been "sailing for a year." I know a lot of people who have been "sailing for a year" who MAYBE have been out on a boat 12 times. And I don't know of anyone who has used a drag line in crowded waters. Maybe I just don't surround myself with stupid people.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:42   #162
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I haven't read tyhis entire thread, but if Raku (or anyone else) has a 200 foot (meter) rope hanging off the back, she better be showing a long tow signal. If a boat goes behind her, her trailing rope will snag that boat's prop or rudder, causing a potentially serious situation.

If my props got tangled in someones "dragline", I would use language at them that is generally not heard in mixed company.

If you're that scared of faliing off, hook your tether to a system that will stop the boat, like a "dead man's cord" on outboards. How hard can it be?
Yes...clearly you haven't read the entire thread. If you had, you would know that the people who suggested a floating poly-line in the water were doing so underway on a passage. not around the markers a mile from the yacht club where (apparently) people like you would cut across their stern within 200 ft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
Hmmm, all very interesting. A lot of words ... and some moral philosophising...

All I can say is that my true loved ones (my woman and my kid) are on board with me. We cross oceans with no EPIRB, no working SSB and no sat phone. If we f**k up, we fix it, do without, use the spare or die. Calling for mama does not even enter into the equation.

Yes, there is a SPOT but that is only for coastal cruising and is more to do with social media than rescue crap.

I would be very happy if there was no EPIRB, no SSB, no sat phone and no SAR. The anchorages would be less crowded and the sailors would be more like they used to be.

But that is just us. For better or for worse, we are members of a far larger society than our little family and so we have to buckle down to the requirements of that society.

The LAW. The REGULATIONS. The NANNY STATE.

Ho hum.
It's easy to act balls out when the crap isn't hitting the fan. But if you saw a loved one in the water or disabled in some way onboard and had the chance to save their life via radio EPIRB or whatever, your thinking might change. I can't imagine someone bellying up to the bar bragging how their wife or child died while being self-sufficient.
Generally, I try to be as safe as I can. But...I am human and I know I have the potential of screwing up. yes, I have SSB. Yes I have a GPS/EPIRB. I will also add a 200 ft. line with a slip knot and bungie attached to the windvane of me self steering system.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:20   #163
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Yes...clearly you haven't read the entire thread. If you had, you would know that the people who suggested a floating poly-line in the water were doing so underway on a passage. not around the markers a mile from the yacht club where (apparently) people like you would cut across their stern within 200 ft.


It's easy to act balls out when the crap isn't hitting the fan. But if you saw a loved one in the water or disabled in some way onboard and had the chance to save their life via radio EPIRB or whatever, your thinking might change. I can't imagine someone bellying up to the bar bragging how their wife or child died while being self-sufficient.
Generally, I try to be as safe as I can. But...I am human and I know I have the potential of screwing up. yes, I have SSB. Yes I have a GPS/EPIRB. I will also add a 200 ft. line with a slip knot and bungie attached to the windvane of me self steering system.

200 meters? Where in the heck did 150 ft turn into 200 meters? LOL!

My friend managed to grab a dinghy. He wasn't in a storm, but he was in fog. I MIGHT be able to grab the drag line. Hope I never have to find out.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:33   #164
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pirate Re: Sailor lost overboard

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I'm glad you 'doubt that' since I've stated that multiple times.

"Starter years" isn't always the best measure -- if you've been taking a boat out or on someone else's every 2 - 3 days for a year, you're way ahead of most people who have been "sailing for a year." I know a lot of people who have been "sailing for a year" who MAYBE have been out on a boat 12 times. And I don't know of anyone who has used a drag line in crowded waters. Maybe I just don't surround myself with stupid people.
God your scarey....


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Old 08-05-2013, 09:49   #165
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

Regarding drag line:

I have fouled the prop of my current boat with a line only once, and that one time was with a polypro line streaming behind boat (we were doing MOB exercise at the time with a Life Sling). Thinking the polypro is immune from getting into prop or rudder is fantasy.

Unless a pull on the drag line causes a release of self-steering, auto-pilot or engine shut down don't see much use. Doubt one could hold onto a wet poly rope going by at 6 knots for more than a second or two. Chance of hand-over-handing back to boat is stuff of action movies, not real life.
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