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Old 07-05-2013, 18:49   #136
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Sorry guys most of the safety gear mentioned is false security. Some of it will work in some conditions with a able body crew. If you are single handling, alone in the cockpit or with a non sailor you have only one good safety option. Stay on the boat. A harness that keeps you in the cockpit works, one that lets you go over the lifelines will be slow death. I wish there was more talk about how to keep in the cockpit. How to slide up onto deck in rough weather or realizing you need a plan before going forward. A lot of this safety crap just gives you a crutch to go forward.
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Old 07-05-2013, 19:00   #137
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

It is absolutely impossible to protect everyone in every situation you can think of. Because even if you think you have, a new one will come along and bewilder you again. I am not a round the world sailor, but I have done many, many miles offshore in many different boats. Never trailed a line, never lost anybody, including myself. I take precautions about not falling overboard, but I am not going to prepare the boat with all kinds of equipment in case the worst case scenario pops up that will just get in the way of the pure enjoyment of sailing.

If i spent all my time worrying about what can go wrong I would not go, or find a boat equipped with air bags and auto recovery gear.

I also agree with the poster about not taking an EPIRB with him single handing. We have to carry one over here, nanny state, but we have sailed for many years before them being compulsory and never bothered about it at all, and I would not carry one by choice now. Nor a radio or any other device to put others in danger trying to rescue me from my own bad luck or incompetence. It's like parachuting, you choose to jump, you take what happens after that.

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Old 07-05-2013, 19:12   #138
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Sorry guys most of the safety gear mentioned is false security. Some of it will work in some conditions with a able body crew. If you are single handling, alone in the cockpit or with a non sailor you have only one good safety option. Stay on the boat. A harness that keeps you in the cockpit works, one that lets you go over the lifelines will be slow death. I wish there was more talk about how to keep in the cockpit. How to slide up onto deck in rough weather or realizing you need a plan before going forward. A lot of this safety crap just gives you a crutch to go forward.

But all those things have been talked about. If you have something more to say, i'm sure everyone would be interested, but I don't have "non-sailors" on my boat. if they aren't willing to learn, they can go for a ride somewhere else -- amusemant park? Someone else's boat?

A ladder isn't a useless piece of equipment, and while I'm sure we all agree it's BY FAR best to stay on the boat, clearly the news regularly tells us that people end up in the water.
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Old 07-05-2013, 19:17   #139
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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It is absolutely impossible to protect everyone in every situation you can think of. Because even if you think you have, a new one will come along and bewilder you again. I am not a round the world sailor, but I have done many, many miles offshore in many different boats. Never trailed a line, never lost anybody, including myself. I take precautions about not falling overboard, but I am not going to prepare the boat with all kinds of equipment in case the worst case scenario pops up that will just get in the way of the pure enjoyment of sailing.

If i spent all my time worrying about what can go wrong I would not go, or find a boat equipped with air bags and auto recovery gear.

I also agree with the poster about not taking an EPIRB with him single handing. We have to carry one over here, nanny state, but we have sailed for many years before them being compulsory and never bothered about it at all, and I would not carry one by choice now. Nor a radio or any other device to put others in danger trying to rescue me from my own bad luck or incompetence. It's like parachuting, you choose to jump, you take what happens after that.

Coops.

Just becaues you're in the water doesn't mean rescuing is going to be dangerous, but it's going to be impossible if no one knows where you are.

I'm a big girl, and I make my own decisions. I trust SAR organizations to do the same thing, and decide for themselves what they can safely handle. If something unexpected happened and my boat sank, you can bet I would set my EPIRB off. Do I think it's likely? No. I don't think my car is goin to break down either, because I take care of it, but I still have roadside assistance (yes I know, no one is put in danger by coming to my car).

But I'm not going to be single-handing in the Southern Ocean. I wouldn't single-hand to Key West. All the more reason for me to go with an Epirb, beause other people trust me to keep them safe on that trip.
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Old 07-05-2013, 19:34   #140
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

I'm a big boy, and an old one. Would love to make my own decisions, but the rules now say that I cannot and have to carry all this so called safety gear. Yes, you can choose not to use it, but knowing that it is there would be enough temptation I am sure to the most stubborn of individuals(me) to press the alarm, thus triggering off an expensive and sometimes dangerous rescue. As I stated, I am old and not really worth the expense of sending even a kayak out to me, so maybe I could be true to my thoughts and not press the damn button. Don't know 'til it happens, but it has not happened in 50 years of sailing so will keep pressing my luck. Now, where are those parachute classes?

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Old 07-05-2013, 20:05   #141
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

It seems to me that, to be consistent, some of the people commenting negatively on the notion of trailing a line would also criticise a person who, having packed their own parachute, chose also to prepare a reserve.

If a large, meticulously packed, heavily optimised main chute isn't going to open, why trust yourself to a measly little reserve?

Furthermore, wouldn't the effort of packing the reserve chute better be redirected into making the best possible job of packing the main chute?
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Old 07-05-2013, 20:10   #142
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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It seems to me that, to be consistent, some of the people commenting negatively on the notion of trailing a line would also criticise a person who, having packed their own parachute, chose also to prepare a reserve.

If a large, meticulously packed, heavily optimised main chute isn't going to open, why trust yourself to a measly little reserve?

Because it can save your life.
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Old 07-05-2013, 20:12   #143
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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I'm a big boy, and an old one. Would love to make my own decisions, but the rules now say that I cannot and have to carry all this so called safety gear. Yes, you can choose not to use it, but knowing that it is there would be enough temptation I am sure to the most stubborn of individuals(me) to press the alarm, thus triggering off an expensive and sometimes dangerous rescue. As I stated, I am old and not really worth the expense of sending even a kayak out to me, so maybe I could be true to my thoughts and not press the damn button. Don't know 'til it happens, but it has not happened in 50 years of sailing so will keep pressing my luck. Now, where are those parachute classes?

Coops.

Love your avatar ... and you're not the only sailor who would prefer to die at sea.

On the other hand, if your state is so enthusiastic about saving you, why deprive them of their fun? You got your fun sailing in a wicked gale. Now it's their turn. I mean, they must really WANT to do it if they're requiring an EPIRB. Of course, they're taking half the adventure out of it and 90% of the challenge ...
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Old 07-05-2013, 20:17   #144
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Please don't comments as negative. Of course a back up shut will work. A boat ladder will save you it the boats not moving and you have not tied it up. At six knots it is as good as a pair of water wings. What strategies will really save you, that is what I would like to hear.
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Old 07-05-2013, 20:23   #145
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

Thanks Raku re the avatar. The govt. are not interested in saving me, they just want the money from selling all the safety gear. Like all regulations, it is more about revenue than looking after you. I seriously doubt, but have no proof, that more people died at sea before EPIRBS and such stuff in Australia than have done after the regulations came in, in fact probably the opposite, for whatever the reason.

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Old 07-05-2013, 20:26   #146
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

Up until now, I'd mistakenly imagined Wall-E was fiction, not a documentary!
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Old 07-05-2013, 20:26   #147
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Please don't comments as negative. Of course a back up shut will work. A boat ladder will save you it the boats not moving and you have not tied it up. At six knots it is as good as a pair of water wings. What strategies will really save you, that is what I would like to hear.
Well, Doug, as I've said several times, I've modified my plan here some ... I said I slow my boat down before going forward when by myself. I added to that, putting the boat into a circle with the wheel locked. I think I *could* have a chance of getting back to a slow boat that's circling in the area I'm in. I might even be able to use those figure 8 loops to get to the ladder, and once I'm on the ladder, there's nothing about the slow motion of that boat to keep me from climbing up.

No, it's not guaranteed. But it cost a pittance and is incredibly easy to deploy, so what's the big deal? While this idea has caused quite the flap, it has really refined what I will do.

YOU may not see the need. *I* have cerebral palsy which affects both legs. Although there's nothing wrong with my *sense* of balance, my ability to execute is another thing. In other words, I'm more likely to fall over the life lines than you are. I still choose to sail, but I might as well do what I can to improve my odds should I go in.

As I also said (a long time ago), i record my lat and long every half hour, so if I go in, I have some idea where I am. I go in with a waterproof radio in a fanny pack, so if there are any boats nearby, they have a chance of finding me. I have a strobe and a whistle on my PFD.

BUT I have my boat completely netted. I have handholds. I know how to move around my boat and where to hold on. Since it's completely netted, if it's very rough i can crawl to the bow -- and i have done it -- I need to keep my center of gravity low.

For me, those things are the difference between sailing and not sailing. But you are not me, and you should do what you think is right for you.
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Old 07-05-2013, 22:46   #148
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Thanks Raku re the avatar. The govt. are not interested in saving me, they just want the money from selling all the safety gear. Like all regulations, it is more about revenue than looking after you. I seriously doubt, but have no proof, that more people died at sea before EPIRBS and such stuff in Australia than have done after the regulations came in, in fact probably the opposite, for whatever the reason.

Coops.
Yes! The reason is a mixture of the GPS and the EPIRB, I suspect. Before these inventions, you had to use a sextant and be self-sufficient. Now you can relax, head out to sea and know that the nanny state will come to your rescue, so there is not as much need for seamanship and self sufficiency.

All this talk of safety has to be analysed as to the purpose of the safety item. Normally it is about a cry for help to the nanny state (EPIRBS, flares, radios, etc) and these are often regulated. True safety gear is about prevention, redundancy, self-repair. Not crying like a hungry baby for mama's milk.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:14   #149
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Yes! The reason is a mixture of the GPS and the EPIRB, I suspect. Before these inventions, you had to use a sextant and be self-sufficient. Now you can relax, head out to sea and know that the nanny state will come to your rescue, so there is not as much need for seamanship and self sufficiency.

All this talk of safety has to be analysed as to the purpose of the safety item. Normally it is about a cry for help to the nanny state (EPIRBS, flares, radios, etc) and these are often regulated. True safety gear is about prevention, redundancy, self-repair. Not crying like a hungry baby for mama's milk.

You and Coops are way way off base, This has nothing to do with teh nanny state and you need to leave your poltical leanings to one side.

States have organised rescue at sea for generations, predominantly because sea travel was a dangerous undertaking and often there were large losses of life.

In modern years that service has been augmented by technology aids and improved techniques and a world-wide organisation.

Criticising some nations because they have to have an EPRIB offshore is entirely misplaced, NAtions such as Australia, with enormous sea areas to search, have such regulations to try and make such search more efficient.

Modern nations , allow you to risk your life, AND they try their best to fix you up when you 'f^&k up" and actually hurt yourself doing so. Thats great. Unless your intent is to commit suicide, your loved ones would dearly like you to be rescued.

Modern regulations allow controlled risks, right up to life threatening, but overlaid with controls to ensure that the foolish dont harm them selves without realising.

Rescue agencies are paid to take controlled risks, and they spend a considerable amount of time and money ensuring they can do in extreme conditions and remain safe. I work with a lifeboat and I can confirm the huge effort that goes in to ensure the rescuers remain safe.

So given that, its NOT your call to determine whats safe or not safe for the rescuers to undertake, quite frankly without the training and backup , you will not have a clue what is dangerous and what isn't

Your not the rescue expert, they are.

Dave
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:18   #150
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Re: Sailor lost overboard

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Yes! The reason is a mixture of the GPS and the EPIRB, I suspect. Before these inventions, you had to use a sextant and be self-sufficient. Now you can relax, head out to sea and know that the nanny state will come to your rescue, so there is not as much need for seamanship and self sufficiency.
Yes of course , you might also look at the number of deaths at sea in the traditional days of sail and its navigation techniques. You view is nonsense, safety means people dont die.
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