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Old 05-05-2012, 00:35   #121
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Gain a full and complete understanding of the electronic nav equipment you use, and make sure you connect it back to the basics...
This reminds me of the airline crew who ran into a mountain in Chile. The GPS had been programed wrong, and even though they knew there is a mountain range from north to south they let the autopilot turn the plane into it. Loss of situational awareness or screen glaze if you choose.
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Old 05-05-2012, 05:53   #122
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Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
my map ran out at salsipuedes. but i have sailed the stretch sans gps a few times--isnt difficult to keep watch for 18 hours, i have done it.
the coastline is such you do NOT want to sleep until safety is achieved.
the gps maps are not exact aqnyway, but dependent on what gummingkt gives us from THEIR satellites anyway--so is best to augment with paper charts and a preplanned course.
KNOW where you are going and respect that coast -- remember is a lee shore and rocky and wants your boat.

That happened to me the first time heading into Hamburg Cove off the Connecticut River. GPS charts ended unexpectantly at Essex Ct. Having the paper charts in the cockpit with me allowed me to continue on without panic. Always good to have a backup. Paper works for me.
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:32   #123
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Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

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Thanks Bash; it's a thought which comes easily to mind when solo sailing.

Reading about Kay Cottee's harrowing moment when she realised that she hadn't, after all, been tethered and had come within a nano of being left in her boat's wake has always stayed with me.

It'd be a less than pleasant end and it happens. Off here, a few years back, a skipper took a couple of inexperienced mates for a night trip across the gulf. The boat was on auto-pilot, the skipper went overboard and was last heard yelling instructions for disabling the pilot before disappearing into the night.

The crew eventually turned the boat around (no islands to hit out there) but the skipper was never found - likely shark dinner. Best always to tether.
What's so disturbing about this incident to me is even with a crew of four they might have just as well been single handed for all the security and backup it seemed to provide. If the skipper fell overboard somewhere along the journey. I can't imagine the horror and disoreintation the rest of the crew faced as they got woken up by the boat hitting the island. Two crew in the cockpit overnight would have prevented this type of scenerio from ever happening. Very sad for them and their families.
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Old 06-05-2012, 10:35   #124
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Originally Posted by mbianka

What's so disturbing about this incident to me is even with a crew of four they might have just as well been single handed for all the security and backup it seemed to provide. If the skipper fell overboard somewhere along the journey. I can't imagine the horror and disoreintation the rest of the crew faced as they got woken up by the boat hitting the island. Two crew in the cockpit overnight would have prevented this type of scenerio from ever happening.

Never thought about it that way. When we travel it's usually just my husband & I so it's just one on watch. When it gets bad (40+ wind, 20+ sea) though we are both on and don't use autopilot. Then I stay up as long as I can at night to give him rest because he does more if the wheel time (he's stronger & more experienced) whereas I am more agile so I go forward if necessary and take care of meals.

I wouldn't want to travel without an autopilot or GPS (easier on us) but they are only as good as the person using them. I know there are people who set their waypoint at a cove or island they are going to instead of setting it a ways outside so you have time to get ready or plan your way inside. That is just dangerous.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:01   #125
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Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

in high winds my hydraulic quadrant mounted autopilot saves the day. in slight breezes nothing will steer correctly on my boat--i need WIND to sail, and is used efficiently.
i donot understand this mayhem this boat found....is weird and unexplained at present..maybe some day it will sort out, but for now, may have just as well have been an alien invasion at sea. i cannot understand why, with 4 on board, racing conditions in adrenalineville, there wasnt another soul on watch with helmsman--might have saved the boat.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:30   #126
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As a newbie...this just terrifies me. I've read all the posts in this thread. Some of the technical stuff is over my head, but still. Just seems like it SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. When I was a new scuba diver and had a close call, afterwards I became OBSESSED with accident analysis. I read every account that I could on scuba fatalities, ran through the scenarios, practiced underwater scenarios, etc. I suppose I'll probably be the same with sailing. But this just baffles me.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:39   #127
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Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

diverchick--should not have happened--skipper had coastal mexico experience and had done that race a few other times. the island was in the way of their course--they should have plotted a few degrees one way or other so as not to hit the huge thing. there is truly no explanation for this mess. island has not moved nor grown since forever---do not plot course with island in middle.
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Old 30-08-2012, 09:44   #128
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Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

Updated News story on this tragic event:

Looks like they found the wreckage off North Coronado Island.
Divers Find New Evidence In Boat Crash Off Coronado Islands - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego
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Old 30-08-2012, 10:18   #129
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Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

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Updated News story on this tragic event:

Looks like they found the wreckage off North Coronado Island.
Divers Find New Evidence In Boat Crash Off Coronado Islands - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego
Well at least there is some more certainty as to where it happened. Since I often sail alone I tend to often think about the what ifs and what backups I have on board in case things go wrong. What's haunting to me about this tragedy is there were multiple crew members on board and they might as well have been solo for all the prevention and protection it bought them. So much for safety in numbers meme. Sadly, it was a tragedy that did not have to happen.
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Old 30-08-2012, 11:03   #130
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Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

Aegean Sailboat Wreckage Discovered | San Diego 6 | Local News

"Moore said the pair spotted a chain wrapped around a boat's drive shaft and pieces of debris that said "Hunter," during their second of three dives in the area Aug. 9."

I had originally assumed the crew woke up when they hit the island, and were probably dead or unconscious within minutes if not seconds. But this detail from another news story makes it sound like maybe they had a few minutes warning. Maybe they heard the boom of the surf and ran up and tried to anchor, tried to motor, got the anchor chain wrapped on the prop shaft somehow. Makes it all even more horrifying, somehow.
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Old 30-08-2012, 13:18   #131
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Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

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I just talked to a returning racer on the docks, he heard the whole conversation on the radio. He heard the yacht contact the freighter twice, called it by name, and the freighter answered, guy with broken English. He said several times- "Do you see me, do you see me?" The witness said he couldn't make out what the freighter said in return.
I'm totally amassed by the lack of survival instinct... "DO YOU SEE ME"?? WTF..

ALWAYS assume the answer is a definite NO.and get the hell out of the way IF YOU can. NOW>>>

I rode a mc for 25 years AND lived to tell the tale only because I ALWAYS assumed the driver in the car/truck did NOT see me.... Only takes being wrong once...

Seems we have lost our innate ability to assume FULL responsibility for our own safety and what that means as it relates to what our actions should be in any given situation...

I certainly feel so sorry for the families...and am in no way trying to assign 'fault' I'm trying to get a very important point across to those that ask first and move second... Seems to be more and more of us...
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Old 30-08-2012, 13:20   #132
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Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

It turns out that that conversation apparently did not involve the Agean.

In the early confused reports there was that report, among others, but once the spot was seen it became pretty clear what had happened.
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Old 30-08-2012, 13:29   #133
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Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

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As a newbie...this just terrifies me. I've read all the posts in this thread. Some of the technical stuff is over my head, but still. Just seems like it SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. When I was a new scuba diver and had a close call, afterwards I became OBSESSED with accident analysis. I read every account that I could on scuba fatalities, ran through the scenarios, practiced underwater scenarios, etc. I suppose I'll probably be the same with sailing. But this just baffles me.
Have you read any of the articles that have been around the last 5 or so years
that seem to point to a safety issue CAUSED by buddy diving.. I've been a certified diver for 45 years... seems we tend to get lazy with safety when we have a buddy watching our backs or so we hope/assume..Dive alone and you're much more aware that it's you and you alone so you'd better be paying attention to YOUR safety, because there isn't anyone to come to your rescue...

Sail that way and things tend to go much better,,,

Safety in numbers is a farce and a deadly one...
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Old 30-08-2012, 16:28   #134
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Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

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...A medical examiner report said they died of blunt force trauma, but how they received that trauma remained a mystery...[-from San Diego News report August 29].
According to the ME these guys did not drown, pounded to death by the surf I guess? Geez, what a way to go.

Anyone know the sea conditions at the time of the accident?
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Old 30-08-2012, 16:29   #135
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Sure I have. "A buddy is more likely to kill you than save you.". I usually dive with people very well known to me, never expect them to have to save me. On the times I've dived solo, there is an extra level of awareness but I never assumed I was safer either way. Self reliance is the key...even in groups. Still a very sad story and all the questions bother me.
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