Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-05-2012, 13:56   #46
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

At the rsk of getting a bit grusome - probably find that a yacht going down the side of ship (at 20 odd knots) won't neccesarily get sucked under the ship, but force of the water would suck the yacht in tight - would be kinda like a car getting run along a stretch of motorway Armco by an 18 wheeler.

and of course just because a boat was run down, doesn't mean that was the only vessel that (later) did the same.
__________________

David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 14:03   #47
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,833
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
That puts them in the surf on North coronado island. Which would explain why the boat was shredded. If thats the accurate track.
I remember Zeehag's track going across Isla Cedros.
__________________

__________________
Memento,homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 15:43   #48
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
Aegeans track is broadcast in 10 minute intervals. If in fact this is not some fraud which I can't believe anyone would do. It shows a 01:16, a 01:26 and a final position broadcast at 01:36. The position overlayed on google maps has the boat in the surf or dangerously close on the broadcast position at 01:36. This is really odd see this quote from race committee "A GPS race tracking system indicated the Aegean disappeared about 1:30 a.m. PT (4:30 a.m. ET) Saturday, said Rich Roberts, a spokesman for the race organizer. Race organizers weren't closely monitoring the race at that hour but a disappearing signal is no cause for alarm because receivers occasionally suffer glitches, he said.
"Somebody may have thought the thing was broken," Roberts said.
Lamb, who has been patrolling the race for eight years as captain for a private company, saw the debris nine hours later, called the Coast Guard, and searched for identifying information. He and a partner found a life raft with a registration number and a panel with the ship's name.
I doubt that a ship was traversing that close to the island. I do not understand why the race committee spokesman did not mention that at 0136 the boat appeared to have or near to running into the island. Reportedly Lamb did not see the wreckage until nine hours after the last transmission. I doubt many boats have spent 9 hours in a surf zone and then been pulled off. Obviously no one was watching the spot tracks. Or it would have even noticed that the boat had stopped transmitting while aground or near aground on the north Coronado's. What the hell is going on. Doesn't seem so hard to get some decent facts out. Except that every major news organization has been reporting this like it got hit and no one is saying or run aground. Bad journalism?
It's a shame that the media can't report accurately on cases this tragic. Instead it's media hype, inaccuracies and poor reporting
__________________
sabray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 15:45   #49
Registered User
 
svHyLyte's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,434
Images: 25
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
At the rsk of getting a bit grusome - probably find that a yacht going down the side of ship (at 20 odd knots) won't neccesarily get sucked under the ship, but force of the water would suck the yacht in tight - would be kinda like a car getting run along a stretch of motorway Armco by an 18 wheeler.

and of course just because a boat was run down, doesn't mean that was the only vessel that (later) did the same.
I can easily see the yacht getting knocked down, loosing her rig and having that in the water, bouncing along the side of a fast moving ship until she hits the hollow amidships, the rig and some of the headsail getting pulled under the ship's hull at that point and then getting caught in the props and the rig and eventually entire yacht wound into them and chopped up.

A few years ago my much better half and I were having breakfast at the Holiday Inn across the ICW from Pier 66 in Ft. Lauderdale when a big power yacht emerged from the Pier 66 Marina dragging a sizable Boston Whaler behind it on a painter. 'Geeze" I said, "that's a formula for disaster". As we looked on the guy driving got to the 17th Street Causeway and realized the bridge tender wasn't holding the bridge open for him. He backed down hard and, in a flash, the tender closed with the stern of the yacht, lurched and was dragged under the transom. Of course with this the guy driving and another person on the flybridge jumped down and ran to the stern while the engines smoked away and bits of foam filled Whaler floatsom emerged from either side of the boat. Of course, the boat itself continued drifting toward the Causeway at an increasing rate as the current took hold. The yacht was jambed under the bridge just west of the opening span and the flybridge was excised along with portions of the top of the cabin before it came to rest. "Well" said my wife "you certainly called that. Please pass the butter (or something to that effect)."

We treat ships like misguided missiles, and make a point of taking decisive action to avoid them. Day or night, but particularly at night. It's too easy to loose situational awareness so one must always be on one's toes.

FWIW...
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
svHyLyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 15:58   #50
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
What ship? I can more easily see a boat on autopilot with (reported earlier by a fellow cf sailor) a chart loaded in a chart plotter that is not accurate .The helmsmen at 1 :30 is watching the plotter he's kicked back and wham he's in a surf zone. chaos follows as the boat breaks up. It's dark everyone is surprised and stunned. We know from the prior san fran incident that it is dangerous even with a jacket in those conditions. I have seen no evidence that shows a ship ran them down. I have seen some that would support running into the island. It is possible that the boat was hit and the spot continued on a straight course at consistent speed and ran into the island. I doubt it. Until someone can find a ship traversing that close to the island I'm thinking that the ran aground and broke up.
__________________
sabray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 16:02   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 393
Images: 2
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
Aegeans track is broadcast in 10 minute intervals. If in fact this is not some fraud which I can't believe anyone would do. It shows a 01:16, a 01:26 and a final position broadcast at 01:36. The position overlayed on google maps has the boat in the surf or dangerously close on the broadcast position at 01:36. This is really odd see this quote from race committee "A GPS race tracking system indicated the Aegean disappeared about 1:30 a.m. PT (4:30 a.m. ET) Saturday, said Rich Roberts, a spokesman for the race organizer. Race organizers weren't closely monitoring the race at that hour but a disappearing signal is no cause for alarm because receivers occasionally suffer glitches, he said.
"Somebody may have thought the thing was broken," Roberts said.
Lamb, who has been patrolling the race for eight years as captain for a private company, saw the debris nine hours later, called the Coast Guard, and searched for identifying information. He and a partner found a life raft with a registration number and a panel with the ship's name.
I doubt that a ship was traversing that close to the island. I do not understand why the race committee spokesman did not mention that at 0136 the boat appeared to have or near to running into the island. Reportedly Lamb did not see the wreckage until nine hours after the last transmission. I doubt many boats have spent 9 hours in a surf zone and then been pulled off. Obviously no one was watching the spot tracks. Or it would have even noticed that the boat had stopped transmitting while aground or near aground on the north Coronado's. What the hell is going on. Doesn't seem so hard to get some decent facts out. Except that every major news organization has been reporting this like it got hit and no one is saying or run aground. Bad journalism?
It's a shame that the media can't report accurately on cases this tragic. Instead it's media hype, inaccuracies and poor reporting
Bad Journalism? Not at all. Bad Journalism implies that there is some journalism going on. Not bloody likely... I agree with you, and have seen this lack of journalism going on a lot lately. Today the professionals have been mostly let go, the young kids that are just doing this till their great novel is published, no spell checking, no 'editing' by a real editor to vet meaning, logic and sources.... I could go on, but why?

Frustrating for normal people. I have yet to see any other news organization discuss the idea that the spot tracker points them into an island. What gives?

tragedy nonetheless. Hopefully the facts shall be known and we can all learn from this.
__________________
h20man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 17:34   #52
Registered User
 
mbianka's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,125
Images: 1
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
What ship? I can more easily see a boat on autopilot with (reported earlier by a fellow cf sailor) a chart loaded in a chart plotter that is not accurate .The helmsmen at 1 :30 is watching the plotter he's kicked back and wham he's in a surf zone. chaos follows as the boat breaks up. It's dark everyone is surprised and stunned. We know from the prior san fran incident that it is dangerous even with a jacket in those conditions. I have seen no evidence that shows a ship ran them down. I have seen some that would support running into the island. It is possible that the boat was hit and the spot continued on a straight course at consistent speed and ran into the island. I doubt it. Until someone can find a ship traversing that close to the island I'm thinking that the ran aground and broke up.
I agree. If that Spot track is for real if it is a smoking gun. If they were underpower using an auto pilot. A sleepy watch stander would be all that it would take for this tragedy to occur. Another possibility perhaps Co2 from the engine exhaust drifted along in the cockpit also adding to their sleepyness.
__________________
Capt. Mike
mbianka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 17:44   #53
Registered User
 
Cormorant's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Catskill Mountains when not cruising
Boat: 31' homebuilt Michalak-designed Cormorant "Sea Fever"
Posts: 2,073
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

If it was a grounding, seems there ought to be at least a keel and some pieces of hull attached in the surf zone or tossed up on shore there. Wonder if the CG helos have had a look.
__________________
Cormorant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 17:52   #54
Registered User
 
Sailor g's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie
was listening closely to the VHF and didn't hear the conversation but we easily could have been out of range.

The race did cross the shipping lanes but I don't think that there are any shipping lanes off the Coronado Islands.

It is so incredibly sad to hear of the loss of the Agean crew. This one hits me hard because it comes so shortly after the first and I've been part of the race activities at the Ensenada end.

We live in Los Angeles and are used to the many container, cargo and tanker ships that traverse the narrow area between the mainland & Catalina Island (26 miles at narrow). But we were in Ensenada last summer and were surprised at the number of ships coming and going-far more than when we stayed there 4 years ago. Many don't realize or forget just how fast these vessels are traveling. We call them (name frim AIS) to coordinate moves-we slow down or alter course to go behind. They appreciate it-although I'm not sure they would if all did this.

We witnessed a sailboat come close to getting run over-it was daylight, sunny & little wind. We didn't hear ship calls on VHF (but we did & got no answer to ours) but the ship's warning horn was blaring. We saw no one in the cockpit (thru binoculars). There was a flash of white and we thought it was the boat but it was only the sail (against he dark hull of the tanker) flogging from the wind as the boat went down the side of the moving tanker. It's hard to believe they didn't see or hear it but I've heard people set the autopilot & go below to nap- that's crazy It was horrifying to watch. You could see commotion in the cockpit after- they were lucky ones.
__________________
Sailor g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 18:06   #55
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Montevideo, Uruguay
Posts: 238
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbianka View Post
... Another possibility perhaps Co2 from the engine exhaust drifted along in the cockpit also adding to their sleepyness.
From what I've read, diesel fumes contain little CO (which I guess is the gas you meant to mention). I don't think a hunter 37 would have a gas engine.

Anyone knows how far from North Coronado was the debris field?
__________________
dpons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 18:25   #56
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,777
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

i find it entertaining that a sailor who has done that exact trip 7 (or how many he did it) times would actually fall into a surf zone without seeing or knowing about it.
i CAN believe that the sailboat was hit by a ship then , when the scraping was happening, the propane blew. propane explosions donot necessarily make flame. they DO blow stuff to tiny bits and remove decks from hulls and other wondrous damage--WITHOUT SCORCHING.
i also find it hard to believe the spot track, as the one i used was same model--making 10 min entries, as i still was tracked over land. i KNOW spot signals can be more than 100 yards OFF. i have pushed my spot's button and found my locale is at the fuel dock or on land and OTHER LOCALES MORE THAN 100 YARDS away from my actual location.
what happened will mebbe never be truly known. the simple explanations do NOT cut it, as they do not fit the profile of debris left behind.
and--tell me, if that is the accurate locale of the boat when hit, per witness, WHY was the freighter so close to coronado island norte???? that isnt shipping lane, as i recall--is too close to island. the track must be off by more than 100 yards.
another question for ye---WHY DID NO ONE ON THE AEGEAN SEE ANYTHING IN TIME TO CORRECT ANYTHING OR SEND OUT MESSAGE. could it be because a secondary problem happened after the hit??? BOOM happens, and is a concern always in a cruising sailboat, especially a hit one.
doesnt make sense, nor can we make it make sense.

rip aegean.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 19:03   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Seattle, Wa
Boat: Spencer 31
Posts: 62
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

The charts do not show a light on Isla Norte, nor do I see a tower on the sat view. If the watch was not totally alert or looking at the charts, he may not have seen the island.

The Coronado islands are on the San Diego chart (Us18765), so they are in the correct location on the charts unlike most of the Mexican shore.
__________________
jaredko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 19:09   #58
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,777
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

we know the islands are in the right place, but we do NOT know the spot tracker is accurate--mine wasnt, as you remember--i was seen to be sailing thru land despite fact i was NOT so doing....
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 19:26   #59
Registered User
 
Capt Phil's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Stateline NV
Boat: Prior boats: Transpac 49; DeFever 54
Posts: 2,749
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

Boy, this is a tragic accident made all the more terrible by the loss of life and still one missing. My heart goes out to the families of the deceased.
The conjecture surrounding the incident seems awfully misleading without solid evidence other than a somewhat suspect electronic tracking system. One woman who says she saw a large ship in the vicinity(could have been the outline of N.Coronado Island), comments about how a large, unidentified vessel must have chopped up the vessel and other guesses at the cause don't do much to lead to conclusive evidence of the cause.
Having delivered many vessels between San Diego, Los Angeles and Ensenada in all kinds of weather and many night passages, I can assure readers that large commercial vessels don't travel close to South Coronado, but particularly North Coronado Islands because of the hazards of unmarked rocks and poor radar returns on North C. Island. The closest you will find a larger vessel would be tankers delivering crude to Rosarita Beach Power Station to the submarine berth considerably south of the islands.
The separation zone for larger vessels leaving and entering San Diego Harbor are clearly quite a distance north of the North Coronado Island.
Anyone who has been out there knows that even in a moderate sea, there are hugh breaking waves at the top of the northern island and once caught in the surf, very difficult to extract yourself.
While sail and powerboats are generally stoutly built, once trapped in rocky surf, they will virtually disintegrate in a few hours of pounding. The keel will go to the bottom.
Zee, Sabray and others make good points but being rundown in that area doesn't compute for me mainly because I've never seen larger commercial vessels close to either of those Islands in over 15 years of deliveries. Capt Phil
__________________
Capt Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 20:54   #60
Senior Cruiser
 
maxingout's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fort Pierce, Phoenix
Boat: Privilege 39 Catamaran, Exit Only
Posts: 2,606
Re: Sad News Again Off Mexico

This is a very confusing incident. I cannot draw any conclusions about what actually happened. But I do know that the person on watch is the weakest link in the chain when you are sailing at night. I also know that sailing close to underwater obstructions in the dark relying on electronic navigation to keep you out of trouble is hazardous to your health.

I came close to being run down by a ship when sailing into Auckland Harbor in New Zealand. We didn't hear it come up from behind until it was nearly too late, and that happened in daylight hours.

I nearly had a collision at night in American Samoa because the watch stander did not call me until it was nearly too late. That was a tug and tow incident.

We always stand twenty miles offshore at night, and the person on watch checks around the horizon at least every ten minutes. It works well unless the watch stander falls asleep.

When we sailed up the Red Sea, one yacht was lost in the surf north of Djibouti because the captain fell asleep on a long tack and the yacht ran up on the reef.

Another New Zealand yacht in the Red Sea had the captain wake up just before entering the surf line on shore, and he narrowly escaped disaster.

When we sailed to New Zealand, the Melinda Lee was run down by a freighter when the watch stander went below to get some coffee during inclement weather. Three people died.

The only lesson I can take out of this incident is that the person on watch needs to do his job well, because if he/she makes a mistake, lots of people can die. It doesn't matter if the problem is a freighter, rocks, or reefs, the watch stander is the person that determines the safety of the entire crew.

This could happen to any of us. We all need to take whatever steps are necessary so that it never does.
__________________

__________________
Dave -Sailing Vessel Exit Only

http://SailingUNI.com
http://maxingout.com
http://PositiveThinkingSailor.com
maxingout is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
california, race

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:02.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.