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Old 28-02-2013, 10:12   #76
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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Originally Posted by msrcal36 View Post
my response: Just to enlighten the arm chair expert monday morning quarter back here, we have been sailing for 40 years, were using a chart plotter, 2 paper charts, a cruising guide and were using caution as suggested in the cruising guide, were in the marked channel. The hole is appartently the result of a repair called for in our purchase survey that was not adaquately completed. And... oh yes we have heard of charted depths. And I trust you sir have never run aground. "There are 2 types of sailors: those who have run aground and liers".


I hope your boat is salvageable. Once flooded like that, it can be tough to bring everything back. Best of luck with it.
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Old 28-02-2013, 10:26   #77
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

On my boat s/v Tillie, the PO fitted not one but three depth sounders! The best being the InterPhase forward scanning. Alas, I understand that the company has gone out of business. The display and user interface is crappy, but it works and could have warned of shallow water ahead! But still no reason not to follow the center of the deep water channel in unknown waters!
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Old 28-02-2013, 12:05   #78
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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But then these folks probably weren't in doubt, but oblivious.
"Oblivious"....oh the irony! "I started to joke, but the joke was on meeeee.....!
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Old 28-02-2013, 13:33   #79
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

msrcal36 -

i for one understand your situation. i'm a local, have been through that cut many times, and still manage to run aground occasionally, although in my case it's usually at the north end, not the south. the local towboat sometimes stations himself at the cut to lend assistance and advice. every major storm through here seems to move the bars around.

what does concern me is the damage to the skeg from what is usually a soft grounding. concerns me because i have a similar skeg/rudder.

hope everything goes well and you continue on your cruise...
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Old 28-02-2013, 13:37   #80
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

It's good to hear from the skipper's mouth so to speak. Thanks for your comments and I hope all will be made good.
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Old 28-02-2013, 14:40   #81
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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my response: Just to enlighten the arm chair expert monday morning quarter back here,................
Unfortunately, social grace and tact are often in short supply on internet forums. Please be assured that most don't see your loss as a careless action on your part. We are all at risk!
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Old 28-02-2013, 15:14   #82
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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Originally Posted by msrcal36 View Post
my response: Just to enlighten the arm chair expert monday morning quarter back here, we have been sailing for 40 years, were using a chart plotter, 2 paper charts, a cruising guide and were using caution as suggested in the cruising guide, were in the marked channel. The hole is appartently the result of a repair called for in our purchase survey that was not adaquately completed. And... oh yes we have heard of charted depths. And I trust you sir have never run aground. "There are 2 types of sailors: those who have run aground and liers".
Hey man, don't let that guy bother you. Looks like to me he has a hangup with how people look at their charts. Never mind that some of these silly apps get updated daily lol

But seriously, this is SOOOO easy man! It could happen and DOES happen to everyone! Not the sinking part, the grounding part. We're sailing the boats we love in places where depth changes daily and stuff happens!

The damage, as many noted, looks very suspicious. I hope you can get to the bottom of it. Good luck
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Old 28-02-2013, 16:04   #83
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

Mike and Diane: Best of luck getting back on the water! Everyone goes aground--it sounds to me more like a typical grounding, followed by really bad luck. I've been up and down the ICW dozens of times and I wouldn't be surprised if I've gone aground more than 100 times in my cruising career. It is a normal part of cruising, unless you never go farther than the keyboard on your computer.
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Old 28-02-2013, 20:21   #84
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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Originally Posted by msrcal36 View Post
The hole is appartently the result of a repair called for in our purchase survey that was not adaquately completed.


Can you enlighten us any further as to the nature of this repair?
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Old 28-02-2013, 20:53   #85
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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The problem is there is no such thing as a "r19" or a "g18," and there is no marker even numbered 19 in the area. Typical of crowdsourced information.
Quite right. How about a R18 and R18A. There is a G19 on the older charts but replaced with a GRC. No idea how long ago.
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Old 28-02-2013, 22:25   #86
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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I've been up and down the ICW dozens of times and I wouldn't be surprised if I've gone aground more than 100 times...
EXACTLY!!! me too
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Old 01-03-2013, 20:48   #87
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

We came through there on Feb 11. Seatow flagged us down and lead us through the good water right up until the turn to the George Munson Bridge. So sorry for the loss of your sailboat.
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Old 01-03-2013, 22:00   #88
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

Just FYI ...

This hazard is marked on Active Captain with a bunch of comments. The most recent one from 20130207 says:

Hit violently between r 18a &G 19 the bifurcation bouy. Was on the magenta line on Garmin and it cleaned the kitchen. Next boat behind had same experience. Depth alarm never had chance to go off.

Looks like the bar surprises many as it moves around with local conditions.

I wish Primrose owners best of luck ... hope you are back on track soon!
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Old 02-03-2013, 14:33   #89
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

In tricky sections of the ICW you cannot rely on charts to see where the water is. Call TowboatUS and ask. I do that frequently as the water can change from the down trip to the up trip. Reduce speed, keep an eye on the depth sounder and forget about the magenta line.
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Old 02-03-2013, 15:02   #90
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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Of course it is their fault 100%, and they know that, but blame charts, notices to mariners and even colombo for discovering america.Like that grounding in bahamas cays recently. Problem is with this forum and most of them,(that is reason i am avoidig registration to any forum) that you are not allowed to tell the trouth in the face. You have to be "polite" and that crap.

And who needs Notices to Mariners when you have iphone, ipod, ipad, blackberry, strawberry, roseberry or some other fancy berry for navigation
The tone of your remarks implies that with your (in your mind) superior and traditional navigation skills, such a thing could never happen to you . Clearly, you have never sailed in the ICW, which has a natural depth of about 60cm and which is sporadically dredged to 2 or 3 meters.

I can't count the times I've run aground in the ICW. Dozens of times, probably. Although my sea time in the Med and English Channel is greater. I've never touched the ground in the Med, and only once in the Channel (and that was an uncharted, un-noticed sand bar in Dartmouth Harbor at low tide, right on the town quay) in probably around 200 sea days (in the Channel), despite the huge tidal range and challenging pilotage in that area.

The difference is that the hydrography in European waters is nearly always reliable. It is different in the ICW. No matter how carefully you navigate, no matter how scrupulously you read the Notices to Mariners, you will inevitably hit the ground in the ICW. The ICW is always trying to get back to its natural depth of 60cm, and frequently succeeds faster than the dredgers can keep up. Charts simply can't be updated quickly enough to accurately represent the constantly changing bottom, and if you have no data, there is practically no way to avoid a shoal which didn't even exist only a few days previously. Usually, it's not a big deal, as people who sail there have contracts with Towboat US or Seatow, where you pay a modest fixed price per annum for unlimited tows. The tidal range there is small and the bottom is usually sand (there are hardly any rocks), so the consequences are usually trivial -- missed cocktail hour is about the worst thing that has ever happened to me. The OP was extremely unlucky. It has nothing to do with his skills.
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