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Old 24-02-2013, 07:52   #31
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
This looks like a major construction error:
This looks like a job for Minaret!..This is a good reason to go for a fuller type keel and rudder setup ,Imo...
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Old 24-02-2013, 08:08   #32
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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This looks like a job for Minaret!..This is a good reason to go for a fuller type keel and rudder setup ,Imo...
Even just having a spade rudder might have been better. Yeah, the rudder would be bent but, there would be no huge gaping hole from the skege failure.Scary how even a quality boat like a Moody can fail from a simple grounding. Though as Deep Frz mentioned it looks like the skeg failed at a bevel joint (from a previous repair perhaps?). Maybe others with repair/survey experience could comment.
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Old 24-02-2013, 08:39   #33
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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FLORIDA-ATLANTIC INTRACOASTAL WATERWAY-MATANZAS INLET- MOSQUITO LAGOON-PONCE DE LEON CUT: Shoaling.
Extreme shoaling is present in the vicinity of Ponce de Leon Cut DBN 18 (LLNR 40610). A 5ft shoal extends approximately 10 yards into the
channel at low tide water depth is approximately 5ft. Mariners are advised to use extreme caution while transiting the area.
Chart 11485
LNM: 05/13


For those who missed it earlier in this thread, this is the notice.
.....and now blame everything and anything but themselves., from boat manufacturer to if cristoforo colombo did not discover america they would not be there
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Old 24-02-2013, 08:58   #34
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

Yeah, that ain't normal. These poor people got screwed. Guessing lawsuit to follow. That is one massively substandard repair or build. I like how they tried to fother a hole that size with a couple of canvas covers. Use a sail man!
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Old 24-02-2013, 09:07   #35
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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I like how they tried to fother a hole that size with a couple of canvas covers. Use a sail man!
The boat was sinking. I'm sure they grabbed whatever was handy to stuff in the hole. There probably wouldn't have been time to find and unbag a sail. A hole that big would let in water so fast your first thought should be how you're going to save yourself and your crew. In the ICW the best strategy in a situation like that would be to drive her hard aground outside of the channel, but maybe they were still aground so the boat couldn't sink very far.
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Old 24-02-2013, 09:46   #36
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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The boat was sinking. I'm sure they grabbed whatever was handy to stuff in the hole. There probably wouldn't have been time to find and unbag a sail. A hole that big would let in water so fast your first thought should be how you're going to save yourself and your crew. In the ICW the best strategy in a situation like that would be to drive her hard aground outside of the channel, but maybe they were still aground so the boat couldn't sink very far.


I'm guessing the divers and salvage crew did that bit. Doubt the owners had time to do anything.
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Old 24-02-2013, 09:58   #37
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

So... couldnt find out ..........what kind of cheap POS boat breaks the skeg off on a gronding like that....?
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Old 24-02-2013, 10:16   #38
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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For those who missed it earlier in this thread, this is the notice.
So notices like these over-rule channel markers in the water? I don't think that conforms to International law. It can over-rule a chart, but not markers in real life.
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Old 24-02-2013, 10:20   #39
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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Well, that's a new one. Never thought about the skeg sinking a boat from a simple grounding. Maybe a free standing rudder does have some benefits even if it might catch a more lobster traps when underway. I feel a skeg vs no skeg post coming on.
Many years ago I had a Northern 29, a S&S design. At one point I had the rudder off. I was amazed at how flimsy the skeg was without the rudder shaft there.
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Old 24-02-2013, 10:51   #40
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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So notices like these over-rule channel markers in the water? I don't think that conforms to International law. It can over-rule a chart, but not markers in real life.
I'm not sure what you mean by "over-rule." The Coast Guard is issuing a Notices to Mariners with regard to this discrepancy from the charted information in order to warn mariners. They can't get out there and fix every problem instantly so they warn people something isn't right. There are hundreds if not thousands of these notices every month.
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Old 24-02-2013, 10:53   #41
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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So... couldnt find out ..........what kind of cheap POS boat breaks the skeg off on a gronding like that....?
I posted this earlier.

Quote:
Searched through their blog. She is a 1977 Moody 42 pilot house ketch. Design draft 5.5 feet.
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Old 24-02-2013, 11:11   #42
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by "over-rule." The Coast Guard is issuing a Notices to Mariners with regard to this discrepancy from the charted information in order to warn mariners. They can't get out there and fix every problem instantly so they warn people something isn't right. There are hundreds if not thousands of these notices every month.
Yes I understand that they can't change the chart. These notices are in use around the world for that. But that doesn't mean that channel-markers don't have to be moved... the shoaling doesn't happen overnight...

I'm in doubt about other areas but in Western Europe, they dredge channels to keep them at the charted depth. If there is something wrong, like a wreck or sudden shoal, they put markers in the water so that boats notice this. When the shoal moves, the markers are moved and a notice is published, not just a notice with static markers that lead boats to their doom.


Edit: they now sometimes use virtual markers, which are only visible on AIS.
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Old 24-02-2013, 11:16   #43
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Yes I understand that they can't change the chart. These notices are in use around the world for that. But that doesn't mean that channel-markers don't have to be moved... the shoaling doesn't happen overnight...

I'm in doubt about other areas but in Western Europe, they dredge channels to keep them at the charted depth. If there is something wrong, like a wreck or sudden shoal, they put markers in the water so that boats notice this. When the shoal moves, the markers are moved and a notice is published, not just a notice with static markers that lead boats to their doom.


Edit: they now sometimes use virtual markers, which are only visible on AIS.
They do this on the AICW too, often smaller red and green plastic buoys. i don't think we have a confirmed report about s/v Primrose running aground in or outside of the markers.

Edit: Be careful going too close to the markers. A couple of years ago, I did run aground, rounding R2 too close, in the channel. (Charts from St Lucie Inlet).
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Old 24-02-2013, 11:25   #44
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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So notices like these over-rule channel markers in the water? I don't think that conforms to International law. It can over-rule a chart, but not markers in real life.

technically speaking in someway yes. othervise there would be no notice, notice is given in case of navigational hazards, something changed and until that change is "fixed" or become rule or until someone put or move channel marks, buoys or any mark for safer navigation.
if they read this notice they would not go there, would they.
but i am afraid that they are one of those that are using for navigation iphone, ipad, ipod, raspberry, strawberry and other wild fruits ( with "charts" last time updated 5 or 10 years go)and then blame colombo for discovering america. like that "captain" in bahamas cays recently.

...there is, let say, sunken barge in the canal and you have notice that there is sunken barge but still there is old markers/buoys "channel open for navigation". you would discard notice and proceed straight ahead an then blame , who, chart maker because in meantime they did not updated charts with "wreck" or say notice can not overrule markers and because that I proceed straight ahead. tell that your insurance company next time
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Old 24-02-2013, 12:16   #45
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

Question: What does "follow the magenta markers" mean?
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