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Old 19-11-2008, 23:28   #76
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Can you be ordered off your vessel?
An admiralty lawyer examines a recent decision in a lawsuit against the Coast Guard
By John P. Love

http://www.marinecharter.org/pdfs/No..._Soundings.pdf

"... The owner of Northern Voyager, its underwriters, and the Thames Shipyard and Repair Co. sued the Coast Guard in the U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts, alleging that the sinking was due to the agency exceeding its authority by compelling the master to leave his vessel against his will, and by interfering with the efforts of the commercial salvor.
Plaintiffs claimed that, had the master not been coercively evacuated from his command, and had the salvor been included in the communications with those on scene, Northern Voyager could have been saved...

... The general legal principal governing rescue missions is that the decision to undertake a rescue is discretionary, but once the Coast Guard accepts a mission it should do so with acceptable seamanship...
... The Coast Guard is immune from the consequences of policy choices, as opposed to technical errors or which it is accountable.
The court said, “A forcible evacuationfrom a private vessel constitutes a seizure of the person” and can only be ordered by the Coast Guard in life-threatening emergencies...


More:
http://www.marinecharter.org/pdfs/No..._Soundings.pdf
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Old 19-11-2008, 23:47   #77
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I apologize for posting that but I don't know how to insert links.

Anyway, this is all very interesting and information that the boating public needs to understand but it is entirely off subject.
No one on the S/V Panache was FORCED to abandon by the Coast Guard.

Schoonerdogs Wife... If you have been in touch with the Oldens will you shed some light on their decision making? Was the Captain in the habit of leaving their daughter alone in the mothers care? Were there issues that made him decide against sending the seasick passenger, his wife and child ashore while he, Sam and Rachael stayed with the vessel?
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Old 19-11-2008, 23:53   #78
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Runner, The watertight doors were open because the Coast Guard supplied (and poorly working) pumps suction lines were running through them. When the decision to abandon was made they scampered and left all their equipment aboard.
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Old 20-11-2008, 00:21   #79
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What I figured.
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Old 20-11-2008, 06:49   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadog! View Post
I apologize for posting that but I don't know how to insert links.

Anyway, this is all very interesting and information that the boating public needs to understand but it is entirely off subject.
No one on the S/V Panache was FORCED to abandon by the Coast Guard.

Schoonerdogs Wife... If you have been in touch with the Oldens will you shed some light on their decision making? Was the Captain in the habit of leaving their daughter alone in the mothers care? Were there issues that made him decide against sending the seasick passenger, his wife and child ashore while he, Sam and Rachael stayed with the vessel?
I can't shed much light on their decision making. All of our emails have been about how they are doing now and what efforts they are making at assembling a new life and searching for their boat. As a friend I don't feel it's appropriate to badger them about details. They will tell their story when they are ready. And for the 5 adults on board, there may well be 5 stories, that's human nature. And I am sure little Makenzie will have her own salty version to regale us with as well

I don't think a dad would part with his wife and kid if there was a chance (even a small one or merely a perceived one) that he might not make it. Orphaning your small child is not worth a boat. I know that may sound dramatic, but that's probably how they felt. For me (and I have called my boat home for 10+ years) I would rather have my husband and son and no home than lose my husband in pursuit of a floating tub of insured fiberglass.

I DO know they tell me that they had 3 days of 50 knot winds and 40 foot seas. I think after three days they were exhausted and terrified and things were breaking on the boat and they felt they could not make it. Exactly WHAT broke and to what extent I do not know exactly in detail from their word.

I am happy hearing from them last night that the people of Bermuda have been EXTREMELY generous in taking care of their needs. If you're going to shipwreck, do it in Bermuda. I have dim hopes they will recover their vessel. They are in talks with the insurance company to see what exactly is possible in salvage and so on. No word yet on anyone, anywhere spotting that boat.
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Old 20-11-2008, 07:22   #81
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When the USCG does an evacuation. Everybody leaves. The theory being they don't do return trips. No one is ever allowed to stay. It's you all go or don't bother calling. It's not a negotiation. It's been tried before.

It's unfortunate the amount of speculation that seems to be generated by these postings. The ability of the crew to respond is always diminished after an extreme weather situation and things done in calm seas becomes exceptionally dangerous and difficult as weather gets above gale force winds. Decisions made at sea have a finality to them. Based on that standard the proper decision resulted in the best possible outcome. That does not require any speculation what so ever and requires no defense by the captain and crew.

I find it demeaning to the people that went through the disaster to have to listen to a lot of speculation based on no facts that seems more boastful and self serving and anything but helpful. It's not the better side of Cruisers Forum.

We have issued a number apologies to crew members as a result of this type of posting in the past from other such mishaps. They do seem to bring out both the best and worst in people. That can already be seen in this thread. It's not been a hard thing for the CF staff to do this when it happens but it leaves a nasty taste in your mouth because some self serving members forced us to appear as condoning such thoughtless postings.

I hope to see the brighter side of Cruisers Forum and less of the other.
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Old 20-11-2008, 07:47   #82
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Well put Paul, and precisely the reason I earlier stated that departing the US east coast for the Caribbean at this time of year is common and a non-starter in terms of the efforts of many to find fault with these unfortunate people. None of us was there and none of us knows the precise condition of the boat, or the crew.

These armchair analyses always strike me as an effort by people to prove to themselves (or others) that "it couldn't (or wouldn't) happen to me". Fine. But these are real people who will no doubt agonize over their decision for a long time to come - and I'm sure that they don't need anyone else's 'help' in doing that. Please, lets not try to justify it by claiming that we all can learn from their 'mistakes' - how can any of us learn from this case when we weren't there, and do not (and likely will never) know all of the facts? Put another way, why would anyone respond to inquiries from people on this site for details of their disaster when they can see that the majority have preconceived notions upon which they are already prepared to indict?

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Old 20-11-2008, 07:55   #83
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Paul,

Speculation about a specific current event at sea when members here have friends involved might be a bit insensitive. Agreed.

Discussing what the CG will or will not do or has done seems valid.
Maybe in a different thread you could cite your references for your first statement that the CG doesn't do return trips. And it's not a negotiation.
Thanks.
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Old 20-11-2008, 08:12   #84
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Thank you Paul and Brad for articulating the view of (I hope) the majority of forum members. As I read this post, I kept thinking about the Panache crew's reaction when they read this post. They are, after all forum members. At least most Monday morning quarterbacks saw the game.

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Old 20-11-2008, 08:32   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pblais View Post
"I find it demeaning to the people that went through the disaster to have to listen to a lot of speculation based on no facts that seems more boastful and self serving and anything but helpful. It's not the better side of Cruisers Forum."

"We have issued a number apologies to crew members as a result of this type of posting in the past from other such mishaps. They do seem to bring out both the best and worst in people. That can already be seen in this thread. It's not been a hard thing for the CF staff to do this when it happens but it leaves a nasty taste in your mouth because some self serving members forced us to appear as condoning such thoughtless postings."
I had become disgusted with the negativity of this thread. Thank you for starting my day on a brighter note.
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Old 20-11-2008, 09:22   #86
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From my Airline Transport Pilot point of view I sencond pblais. I have flown more than 12000 hours at the airlines, and this is exactly the kind of thread you would find in an aviation site after an accident/incident.

Human nature.
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Old 20-11-2008, 09:28   #87
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I don't think anyone was being cruel in anything said. It is a forum, and a subject was brought to the forum. It was discussed, and when you have more than one person you will have more than one opinion most times.

Looking at the video brings to light many things of truth. Mrs. Schoonerdog shares with us that the owners of Panache says 40ft. seas. Never a moment is the hull of the boat lost from sight. The boat itself looks very intact, and capable of sailing. I imagine they called at the worst of thier situation, and if the video is the worst. Then heaven forbid them ever leaving the shore again, because that is not uncommon weather.

I feel bad for these people, and especially the child. The child has no say so in life. We need to be prepared to save ourselves. It is becoming way to common to push the easy button. So Paul when you say there are no facts. Then what would you call the video?

I know what big seas look like, and I am sure many here do also. In theory when standing on the roof a 30footer. Your eyes are approximently 10ft. from the surface. I stood at my mast while sailing, and was looking into the bottom half of waves rounding Point Conception, read 2 years before the mast. If not closer to the bottom third.

I mean nothing cruel, or vicous in what I type. There needs to be a reality check though, and the sea is not angry. She is completely indifferent to our wants. If you are not prepared to meet her moods then by all means don't go.

We as sailors thrive on the fact that we are self suffecient, and want to be free from the normal. There has to be some honesty in the discussion. Then again if you only want to hear what you want to hear, and for it to be sugar coated. Then it is no longer a discussion.

Once again let me say. I feel bad for this family, and crew. I wish them no ill will, and that they recover what has been lost. Everyone has their limit, and we can see this unfortunate family has met theirs. BEST WISHES to them being happy, and healthy.

Hopefully the forum will choose to be more open minded as long as cruel things are not being said. The forum is armchair sailing. Some with no experience, and some with tons of experience. Heck the forum let Ronnie take a whip to his back for how many pages?..............i2f
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Old 20-11-2008, 09:57   #88
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Pblais-
You are dead wrong on your statement about if 1 goes they all go. This is NOT Coast GUARD policy.

The 5 adults will make statements for an insurance claim, even if the Panache is recovered.
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Old 20-11-2008, 10:54   #89
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I answered this statement in a private email.
Nothing I have said or stated about the CG actions in the past was directed at this family or this incident. I plainly stated in the beginning that the 4 year old being there made all the other factors null and void. If the little girl was in any danger, then there are no questions left to ask.
Much of this discussion has been about CG actions in various instances both here and out there. In several cited cases and several not even mentioned, the CG's actions have been what I call crazy and out of control use of their powers.
To this crew, if they bailed to keep that sunny 4 year olds smile just as it is in the photos posted, I very much concurr with their decision!
If I get out of hand in a discussion ever, someone smack me upside the head and tell me to shut up!
If you force me off my ship and then ask if you can practice your gunnery with it as a target, then you better have me restrained and be out of reach when you ask! Some things are worth the consequences.
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Old 20-11-2008, 11:30   #90
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Pblais-
You are dead wrong on your statement about if 1 goes they all go. This is NOT Coast GUARD policy...
Could you share the source of your certainty?

I am aware of instances where crews have been rescued from large ships, leaving a Captain & Engineer aboard; but NOT of any intentional "partial" rescue of yacht crew.
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