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Old 18-11-2008, 09:43   #16
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The child does change everything. The child was brought along, and had no say so. The child is in charge of nothing.

I personally would have stayed with the boat after everyone was gone. Storms are not an eternity, and the boat looked very stable. I did not see breaking waves setting her on her ear. I am not saying it was comfy, but I would not abandon, and lose my boat in these conditions. Patchwork a fix, and sail her close enough to get towed in.
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Old 18-11-2008, 10:23   #17
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Oh damn! I just noticed the laughing face for this thread. I hit the wrong one. It's supposed to be the sad face. Somebody losing a boat ain't funny at all.
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Old 18-11-2008, 10:47   #18
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Well, the video shows the boat rocking and rolling but not extremely.

CG says they had lost propulsion and steering. They had what looks like a storm trysail up and appeared relatively stable, but if they couldn't steer, it's difficult to know what else they could do but call for help -- especially with a kid aboard.

If it were just adults, maybe they'd have tried to tough it out, wait until conditions moderated, and try to jury-rig something.

Is it just me or it that IR footage hard to read? Difficult to get a clear idea of the sea state.


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Old 18-11-2008, 11:11   #19
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Oh damn! I just noticed the laughing face for this thread. I hit the wrong one. It's supposed to be the sad face. Somebody losing a boat ain't funny at all.
I have changed it for you.
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Old 18-11-2008, 11:28   #20
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How do you jury-rig a lost rudder. This seems like a "worst case" scenario.
On this type of boat would that also lead to a flooded engine compartment and loss of propulsion?
Should they have set a sea anchor?
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Old 18-11-2008, 11:39   #21
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How do you jury-rig a lost rudder. This seems like a "worst case" scenario.
On this type of boat would that also lead to a flooded engine compartment and loss of propulsion?
Should they have set a sea anchor?
Looked like they were dragging something off the bow. Sea anchor or drogue.

Steering without a rudder is done by trimming sail but only effective if the rudder is straight or gone. If the rudder is stuck hard over then you're most likely out of luck.
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Old 18-11-2008, 14:44   #22
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Was the boat scuttled ?
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Old 18-11-2008, 15:09   #23
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How do you jury-rig a lost rudder. This seems like a "worst case" scenario.
On this type of boat would that also lead to a flooded engine compartment and loss of propulsion?
Should they have set a sea anchor?
Number of ways to jury-rig a rudder, although from my reading, none of them works astonishingly well. You can lash something together and hang it from the stern. You can drag something behind you, with lines running from a winch on each side so you can adjust it port and starboard as needed.

Dunno about a flooded engine compartment.

Also, I note the CG didn't say they'd lost their rudder...they said they had lost steering. Not quite the same thing.

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Old 18-11-2008, 16:10   #24
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FYI I just got an email from the Oldens. They are all fine, but still no idea where the boat is.

For what it's worth, they clarified over email that the rudder never broke and was fine despite the misinformation in the paper (no surprise there, the Annapolis Capital is not exactly crack journalism).

Here is a link to a local news story coverage from just about 30 minutes ago. I have not watched it yet as I am trying to keep this whole thing on the down low until my son goes to sleep each night. Seeing as this was one of his closest friends, he is scared and worried and confused by the little information he's caught and we're trying to keep him calm and happy.

Annapolis Family Rescued from Sailboat Near Bermuda|ABC 7 News

(again, Schooner-dog's wife here)
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Old 18-11-2008, 16:53   #25
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How do you jury-rig a lost rudder. This seems like a "worst case" scenario.
On this type of boat would that also lead to a flooded engine compartment and loss of propulsion?
Should they have set a sea anchor?

Loss of propulsion. I don't mean to be an armchair quarterback but it is a sailboat. They did have a storm jib up. Steering well that is a different story.

I'm still sad for there loss and glad they made it home safe.
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Old 18-11-2008, 17:05   #26
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I think that boat was next to our's last year in Annapolis. Wearrived here in Tortola Friday night. The Bermuda Triangle was active this year. We broke the head straps on the genny and when we tried to start the engine the solenoid would not engage. When the egine was started by shorting the solenoid, the drive saver bolts sheared leaving us without engine power. Lots of water pored in until we elevated the shaft to reallign the Last-drop. The top swivel for the furler was at the top of the mast but we replaced the genny with our yankee. I went up the mast to retrieve the halyard and swivel but with no sail up and no engine, I got beat up pretty bad. Luckily we had a secon jib halyard. One of the sheets untied so we couldn't tack if we needed to ( never had to tack). The wind remained about 20-25 for the rest of the trip as the trades really filled in. Then the GPS decided to take a vacation. It showed us ashore in South America but COG and SOG were correct. The Globalstar accompanied the GPS on its vacation. The next morning, the GPS and Globalstar worked fine. Somewhere along the passage the 24v. alternator quit but the genset worked fine. We arrived in Tortola after 7 1/2 days and sailed into Village Cay Marina withno problem. Parts have started to arrive and we intend to be in Puerto Rico for Thanksgiving.
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Old 18-11-2008, 17:09   #27
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We Know Next to Nothing

After two days of reading and speculating, I think we know next to nothing about the details of what went wrong with Panache. Ditto for the other two boats which "lost their rudders" at the same time....a C&C44 and a 38' sloop.

The owner apparently said by email that the "rudder was fine". But, the USCG says they "lost their steering". What, exactly, was the problem? Steering cable snapped? Quadrant came loose? Twin steering positions caused some sort of jam? Chain broke?

We also know very little about what caused the "loss of propulsion". Was the engine inoperative? Was the prop fouled?

And the sails....the latest "news" story says the "sails were ripped". Why? Were they hit by a freak microburst? Did they not reef in time or try to carry too much sail?

And the decision to abandon ship...why was that made in conditions which were apparently very uncomfortable but hardly "survival"? Because of the child, as some have speculated? Was the motion just so violent that the crew became terrified/exhausted/?????

I think we shouldn't speculate on these things much until the owner/captain...apparently an experienced sailor...tells his tale -- if and when he chooses to, at which time things should be a lot clearer.

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Old 18-11-2008, 17:22   #28
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Soooo...

The rudder wasn't damaged...

The National Bouy Data Center reports for the general locale at the time are that winds were in the 30's gusting to 40's...

The sea state was reported to be 8 to 10 meters at 6 seconds...

The video tape of the "rescue" shows a somewhat belabored yacht with an untended staysail up, flapping around in the roter wash, but not in any apparent distress and, as reported by others, with "something hanging into the sea off the bow" (is it possible they might have tried to stream a sea anchor with s storm staysail set?)...

And the call for help was placed by a "member of the crew", not the master...

I dislike sounding unsympathetic but it's beginning to sound more like a "sky is falling" experience by novice passage makers that would not have been at sea absent GPS, Electronic Charting and all the crap that gives the illusion that one is in control of one circumstances until the sh_t actually does hit the fan... On the part of the crew if not the master and his family.

I know, I know..I'm being a schmuk and "he was an experienced yachtsman".

Frankly, however, I have friends and acquaintences that have sailed for 30+ years that have never, really, been on the deep; and, for all their "experience" would likely be in deep poo in similar conditions, their yacht club bar bragadocio not withstanding. I am beginning to suspect this may be a similar situation, on the part of the "crew" if not the master and his poor wife and child.

Let us hope they find the yacht. (According to the wind and sea projections for the area, it should be within 100 miles of Bermuda--perhaps a little to the northeast.) Frankly I'm sick of having my insurance rates increased becuase of someone else's hubris.

FWIW...

s/v HyLyte
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Old 18-11-2008, 17:25   #29
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[quote=I think we shouldn't speculate on these things much until the owner/captain...apparently an experienced sailor...tells his tale -- if and when he chooses to, at which time things should be a lot clearer.

Bill[/quote]

Geeze Bill

You pose 10 or 11 good questions then say we shouldn't speculate.

Since nobody perished I think we should present our best guess and see who comes closest to the truth.

The owner/captain might choose to remain silent but somebody will talk sooner or later.

I think it's just an overall sad story considering the family apparently worked on the boat for a couple of years then intended to sail to Australia.

If these guys were really experienced I would think they would have chosen a more near coastal route for a shakedown.

I have seen more boats get in trouble first day out of the yard because something came loose or was never tightened to begin with.

I don't doubt the presence of a 4 year old weighed heavily into the decision also.

Any way......all good questions you pose and certainly all are possibilities.
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Old 18-11-2008, 17:39   #30
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As a mom, a long time liveaboard/ cruiser,and and a very close personal friend of the Oldens, I can tell you the presence of a 4-year old on board likely had everything to do with their decision. Machismo is not a tool one uses in parenting. Baby comes first.

How they got in to that jam is still speculation at this point. But once you ARE in that jam and you have a kid on board, all bets are off. If you feel one ounce that your child is in danger, game over. The fact that they are not only alive means they did the right thing ultimately.

Ya feel those mama bear instincts kicking in here boys?
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