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Old 15-12-2010, 07:23   #106
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What hard evidence is there that she's still afloat- no information as to who sighted her, latitude & longitude, and off what country?. There's no official independent announcement to confirm this. The owner's announcement and entry into the fray of cruiser forum postings is without merit.

[off-topic material deleted]

The owner is clearly on a vendetta. If this was his "grandfather's boat", he could well have afforded to put her on a ship transport!
Actually there was no evidence she was sinking either... merely the qoute from the crew that there was 3" of water in the bilges... not even enough to go over the floor boards... which led to my origonal comment that the skipper and crew were chicken... for which I was bad mouthed...
Could it be possible that they (deliverers) were in reality just two outa work day sailors who decided that Yacht Delivery was a nice cushy number... money for old rope... as an old UK TV quote goes.."I kin do that... Give us a job"
Referalls, written or verbal are easy enough to fake...
But the reality of the open sea's were to much and they just chose to 'Cut n Run'.
As for all this crap about Obama, Rice and takeovers is just that... and more smoke on the water...
I think your trying to make out this is in some way an insurance scam..
If thats your theory... you don't know insurance companies very well.. especially when it comes to older boats... even full cover wont get your money back... if your very very very lucky you may get enough for a replacement hull of the same age...
If you've a seamanly observation to make... make it... thats whats of interest here.. back office powerplay and takeovers are irrellevant, so is why he owns/owned an old boat... I know a millionaire who maintains an 80yr old sailboat that costs a fortune to maintain and probably only fetch a fraction of what he's put into her... so what... its what rocks his boat..
You wanna tell us your REAL AGENDA here....
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Old 15-12-2010, 07:30   #107
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You wanna tell us your REAL AGENDA here....
Looking for another delivery job?
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Old 15-12-2010, 07:39   #108
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Looking for another delivery job?
Shoot.... my covers blown..... I hate that Goat
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Old 15-12-2010, 07:41   #109
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Wow commentator, thanks for the generally unintelligible, yet very entertaining rants. Nicely done! And yes, I know who you are [deleted], but don't feel the need to plaster irrelevant or incorrect information about you all over this message board.

I have read the 80+ posts by other members of this forum and have attempted to answer a lot of the [good] questions that were posed. Most of the folks that read and participate in forums such as this pose questions, hypothesize and provide answers that make us all smarter and ultimately better on the water. After reading all these questions, theories, etc. over the past two weeks, I wanted to fill in a lot of the blanks that came about as a result of speculation about what may have happened out there. It’s too bad that you don’t like the facts, but that’s all I have provided in an attempt to lend answers to many of the questions that were posed about things like thru hulls and keel bolts, etc. Fortunately, the constructive discussion has prompted some folks to take another look at certain things on their boats to make sure they’re safe and sound.

I have no intention of engaging in any type of banter with you that is not appropriate on this board but since you apparently feel the need to pose questions, I'll happily answer a few here and then I’m done with you. I will continue to dialogue and answer questions posed by others but I’m not going to go back and forth with someone who is obviously proving to be the quack I’ve been told that you are.

First, the $300K figure represents what I had invested into the boat (purchase + retrofits, upgrades and equipment). I never said that's what it would cost to buy a 1992 Beneteau 45f5 with original rigging and equipment today.

Too bad your implication isn't true that since the company I worked for was sold in a $1B transaction, that I now have $1B, when in fact that is the value that went to the public shareholders and lending institutions. For a moment I got excited that you may have uncovered that I've been an unknowing Billionaire. Damn, that would be nice.

Thinking (incorrectly) that I was a secret Billionaire, why would it be a bad thing to have my 1992 boat that I love? Why would you seemingly fault me for not having a new, straight from the factory boat? Frankly, I don't care how much money I have or don't have--what is important to me was having a boat that was special to me and my family and one that we could reasonably afford to own. Why would I want to part ways with a solid and proven boat that I knew like the back of my hand and that had delivered me home safely many times after being in rough conditions at sea? Most people have, and like their boats because they are comfortable with them and have made them their own. Whether or not I could buy a newer boat is irrelevant. Perhaps you’d like to come check out my car? I’m sure you’ll want to question why I drive a car that’s 8 years old too. You might be happy to know that I did splurge on a nice new snowblower this year since my plans to spend the winter aboard my boat in the Caribbean have been foiled.

And one last thing—Wikipedia (or as you say Wikpaedia)…really? Be careful about quoting too much of what you read there at your next cocktail party or you’ll end up sounding like an idiot. Consider the source—it’s a collection of inputs that anyone can add/edit and it’s a wealth of misinformation. I can’t imagine a Union would ever go to the lengths to spread false or intentionally misleading information to advance their own agenda…
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Old 15-12-2010, 07:52   #110
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Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, commentator.

How do you come to have such an interest in this owner, if nothing else on the Forum?
Yes. By all means, Welcome to CF "Commentator". Judging by your initial four posts--which seem to have pegged the BS Meter--I'm sure your views will be a real contribution to the discourse of the community.
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Old 16-12-2010, 18:23   #111
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After much deliberation, the moderators have determined that much of what a member posted to this thread was off-topic and in violation of several Cruisers Forum Rules, threatening to knock it so far off course that it could not be salvaged. That would be regrettable, to say the least.

It isn't often that we are afforded the luxury of having one of the principals in the unfortunate loss of a vessel participate in the thread about that loss, helping other sailors understand what happened and how their vessels might be more vulnerable to complete loss than they realize. In the interest of letting this great thread continue, I have had to delete a lot of personal, off-topic material that, though interesting, had nothing to do with the loss of s/v Celadon.

Please understand that we never want to intervene in a thread, making wholesale edits of objectionable material, but it was necessary in this instance so that a fascinating thread could be restored to the public forum. As long as such material is not reintroduced into the thread, there is no reason that it can't continue to grow, providing invaluable information to cruisers all over the globe.

Thank you for your cooperation.

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Old 16-12-2010, 19:02   #112
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There was an EPIRB left onboard (but not activated) and a SPOT tracking device that was taken when the boat was abandoned. Perhaps this is what has proved ultimately the most frustrating to me.
That would be very frustrating Celadon, I agree... but also, I'd imagine, give you cause for concern that there was some other agenda at play somewhere in this affair. Wondering if you have any thoughts to share with us about that? (Trust this is not considered off-topic)
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Old 16-12-2010, 21:43   #113
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Thumbs up to the mods for re-opening this thread.

The last post by Celadon seemed very sincere to me, and that his "old" boat meant as much to him as any of ours do to us. They do have a way of finding a special place in one's heart.

It sure would be nice if the crew would make themselves available, but figure that's not going to happen. If the names and their location as posted earlier was correct, they won't be hard to find in the near future.

I would like to ask Celadon if he had any contact with the delivery crew after taking posession of the vessel? Also, if he has a clue as to why they would disappear after the rescue? Quite a mystery, isn't it?

Celadon, if you are confident that she is still afloat, don't give up hope. Two years ago, I flew to Hawaii to hopefully recover a boat for my friend. He had abandoned her (if it sounds familiar, there is a very long thread here), and she drifted for 2 months. A cruise ship passed right by her, and a passenger emailed some photos of her to my friend's brother, who ran the (blog) site. She was heading directly at Hilo, which was her intended port in the beginning. How eerie those photos were. I couldn't resist trying to save her.

Unfortunately, I had a limited amount of vacation time and the weather didn't cooperate. We were unable to spot her in the twin engined Piper we chartered. I still wonder what became of her.

Best wishes if you try to go get her at some point. If not, there is probably another out there waiting to steal your heart.

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Old 17-12-2010, 00:58   #114
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One thing that I'm going to be sure to install on my boat is a Fast Flow submersible pump mounted on the propeller shaft as described in another thread not too long ago. Not to hijack the thread, does anyone have experience with one of these? Seems that in a case like the one being discussed in this thread such a pump could have saved the day.
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Old 17-12-2010, 05:30   #115
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One thing I got a couple questions about was what attempts were made to try to retrieve Celadon. I received the initial notification from the Coast Guard early that morning and immediately called my insurance company to let them know what was going on, that no one was injured and based on the information I got I believed she would still be afloat for some time based on the information relayed to me at the time. While they were working on getting things set-up on their end and engaging a salvage company, I had a number of calls back and forth with the Coast Guard trying to obtain whatever information I could. At one point late in the morning, it was relayed to us that she had sunk but this wasn't from someone directly involved and it turned out to be just a mixup, talking about a different vessel incident. I wasn't able to get any information from the Air Station until they had landed in Elizabeth City and done debriefs, and that air crew had just finished their shift and left for the day by the time I was able to get a debrief from the station commander. Unfortunately, nobody was there that could tell us one way or another if she was still afloat or going down and this was around 11am that morning. A little after noon, I received photos from the helicopter and spoke to the air crew that confirmed she was afloat and had been making way when they arrived on scene. Once there, the headsail had to be furled and the main dropped (but as seen from photos, was still about a third of the way of the mast).

By this time, a salvage company had been engaged as well but weren't able to launch that day because they couldn't even get to the abandon site until well after dark (80-90 miles out) and Celadon was unlit and in the Gulf Stream with partial sails up and a now-heavy southerly wind. Bottom line--the search area was simply deemed too big and too dangerous and the'd be looking for an unlit needle in a haystack that they weren't even sure was there. Notwithstanding this, alerts were put out to the fishing fleets to keep an eye out as well as Coast Guard navigational hazard alerts to ships transiting the area.

By the time Friday night rolled-around, the focus was on getting a plane up for an aerial search on Saturday and that proved to be a nightmare trying to find a plane equipped to do such a search. Eventually one was found but when it came time to go up, the crew had too many hours and couldn't fly and by the time another could be lined-up, it was already getting to be afternoon and too late to conduct an effective search. I guess trying to do all this over the Thanksgiving weekend proved more difficult than it otherwise might have been. In any event, Sunday morning a search plane went up for several hours and used a plan based on last known position, Gulf Stream, Wind and Wave patterns, etc. etc. etc. They searched quite an area but it was to no avail but not surprising. I think by that time, the potential search grid was something between 5,000-10,000 square miles. We were told we could end up spending tens of thousands of dollars continuing to do aerial searches and with every hour that passed, the grid was getting exponentially bigger. Needless to say, we've been hoping to receive sighting(s) that would allow us to retrieve her.
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Old 17-12-2010, 05:31   #116
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Celadon:

As long as the boat is afloat there is hope! One of the books I carry on board my 30 foot Nonsuch is one called WITHOUT RIVAL. It is the journey of a Nonsuch 30 named SACI IV that was sailed across the Atlantic and cruised Europe for a few years. The owner was not able to sail it back because of business concerns back home. But, his Greek friend had a "dream" of sailing across the Atlantic. So the owner let him sail the boat back. That "dream" of his friend lasted until until the first storm at sea when his friend contacted a freighter to pick him up and he abandoned the boat. The boat continued on sans crew until it wound up in South America I believe. Where the owner retrieved had it shipped back to Canada where it was refurbished and as far as I know is still sailing today but, perhaps under a different name.
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Old 17-12-2010, 06:01   #117
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To answer Boatman's question, yes...it was a hired, [pre-]paid delivery crew with resumes, etc. I was not on board because I was going to need the time to take care of things stateside before heading to the Caribbean for five months. If you want to hear what they have to say, you'll have to find them yourself as I am unable to locate or make contact with them.
I'ld be interested in seeing the resumes that they provided. In fact why not provide their names since in doing so it may help locate them. Something seems fishy...
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Old 17-12-2010, 06:16   #118
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I second GeoPowers. And the third disaster is because the North Atlantic is no place to be in December, it's nothing more nefarious than an annual weather cycle.
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Old 17-12-2010, 06:20   #119
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I'ld be interested in seeing the resumes that they provided. In fact why not provide their names since in doing so it may help locate them. Something seems fishy...
See post#92
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Old 17-12-2010, 06:21   #120
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Celadon, first let me say I am sorry for your loss. The reason I originally started this thread is that the 3 inches of water, holding steady by some accounts, is what caught my eye. We had an incident on our own boat where water had filled the bilge and we couldn't figure it out for quite sometime. Turned out to be the shaft seal which was a PYI PSS type. Our previous boat had a dripless seal of another type and we were unfamiliar with the equipment and did not know it could back off and leak if the set screws were loose. However, most of the water came in when we were motoring and only a little when sailing but in much calmer conditions on the Chesapeake and not on the open ocean. So I was wondering what type of shaft seal was on your boat?

We have a 1985 Waquiez Centurian racer/cruiser and I fully understand and share your passion for older boats. I hope things will eventually work out for you.
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