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Old 28-11-2010, 09:10   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marc2012 View Post
#1 Unless rules have changed cg not in salvage business,(our litigating ways).#2I would doubt that would work,most likely flop around.Everyone should ck keel bolts,or better yet buy boats with encapsulated keek.marc
From:
USCG Office of Search & Rescue (CG-534)
The SAR Mission

Search and Rescue (SAR) is one of the Coast Guard's oldest missions. Minimizing the loss of life, injury, property damage or loss by rendering aid to persons in distress and property in the maritime environment has always been a Coast Guard priority.




The USCG is not to compete with private companies, but if they're not there the USCG mission is still to minimize loss.

I've read plenty of stories where the USCG has dropped dewatering pumps to sinking vessels. 250 gallons/minute is a lot of water. I can only assume that the people on the boat requested to get off, not for any other assistance.

From:

http://www.uscg.mil/directives/cim/1..._10470_10f.pdf


The CG-P6 dewatering pump is used primarily for emergency dewatering of vessels in danger of sinking. The CG-P6 model has a rated output of 250 gallons per minute at a 12-foot suction lift. Under load this pump will dewater for approximately 4 to 5 hours on a full tank of gasoline.
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Old 28-11-2010, 09:23   #47
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Interested in the high powered (gasoline fueled) dewatering pump, but most sailboats carry diesel, not gasoline on board for safety reasons. Tell us more about the pump, its dimensions & weight. No doubt it could be carried on the deck of larger vessels which also carry gasoline for their tenders. Manufacturer's name? Where can one purchase one? Cost?
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Old 28-11-2010, 09:48   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flichyde View Post
Reply to message about PANPAN - this is not appropriate when a yacht is expected to sink & the crew needs rescuing. As of Sunday morning the USCG in Elizabeth City NC states there have been no reported sightings of the Celadon since the rescue. This leads one to believe that she in all likelihood went down, making the MAYDAY the correct call, not PANPAN which is used for demasting & rudder difficulties.
Area salvagers reportedly only venture offshore after bigger, more valuable & newer yachts if it's believed they can be quickly patched & towed. Nothing in this loss indicates the need for a patch. Keel bolt failure is the most common "thread" discussed on Cruisers Forum.
A MayDay call is a distress call put out in case's of imminent danger of sinking and loss of life....
Just because the Yacht is now 'presumed' sunk does not mean she has or could not have been kept afloat if the crew had stayed on board to control the situation...
PanPan would have been adequate as there was no immediate danger of loss of life.... and all receiving stations would have stood by at readiness until the situation was resolved or rescue was needed... advice on conditions would be given and best options for making shore using prevailing currents etc to assist..
Thats how it works.....
It is stated that at the time of rescue it was blowing 40kts and so far we've had varying reports on sea's from 8ft to 12ft... these are not that large...
Furthermore... from the picture of the vessel after the 'rescue' the conditions look to be winds of -F5 and sea's 6ftish... how long after was it taken...
The thing is a Mayday call obliges immediate assistance by any vessel/station receiving the message... even if its only to 'Relay'.... its obvious that they just wanted off...
As stated before... 3inches is nothing.... try over three foot in the bilges in both hulls of a V hulled Cat.. and ankle deep on the cabin sole... and both pumps broken... that warranted a PanPan...
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Old 28-11-2010, 09:58   #49
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Distress, Urgency, and Safety:

Excerpted from “COMMUNICATIONS INSTRUCTIONS DISTRESS AND RESCUE
PROCEDURES”
http://jcs.dtic.mil/j6/cceb/acps/acp135/ACP135F.pdf

103. Definitions
a. Distress is a condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
b. Urgency is a condition concerning the security of a ship, aircraft or other
vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require
immediate assistance.

c. Safety is that condition which necessitates the transmission of a message concerning the safety of navigation or providing important meteorological warnings.

Hence:

MAYDAY is a distress signal, issued in an imminent life-threatening situation, requesting immediate assistance.
The transmission of a distress alert indicates that a mobile unit or a person is in
distress and requires immediate assistance

PAN-PAN is an urgent signal, announcing an emergency when a boat and/or people are in jeopardy, but not in imminent danger, often requiring timely but not immediate assistance.
The urgency signal indicates that the station calling has a very urgent message to transmit
concerning the safety of a ship, an aircraft, another vehicle or a person on board or within sight.

SECURITÉ is a safety signal, warning of a hazard.
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Old 28-11-2010, 10:12   #50
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I just re read the sinking of the cruise expedition vessel EXPLORER off Antarctica exactly 3 years ago ( see wikpaedia online), in which a 4 inch by 10 inch hole (pierced by hard ice) sent the ship down in 20 hours, despite watertight compartments & massive pumping efforts. All passengers and crew were rescued from life boats and brought to nearby ships.
So when massive flooding occurs, it's time to MAYDAY.
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Old 28-11-2010, 10:49   #51
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Gulf Stream gale ends sailing trip in tragedy : The Martha's Vineyard Times
There may be something to the high seas reported in the area as this other rescue may indicate.
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Old 28-11-2010, 11:08   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flichyde View Post
Interested in the high powered (gasoline fueled) dewatering pump, but most sailboats carry diesel, not gasoline on board for safety reasons. Tell us more about the pump, its dimensions & weight. No doubt it could be carried on the deck of larger vessels which also carry gasoline for their tenders. Manufacturer's name? Where can one purchase one? Cost?
Just Google diesel trash pump. Diesel is going to be expensive, probably in the thousands of dollars. A gas powered one can be around $250.
The Dashews mentioned Pacer because they are plastic. Here's an example of a 150 GPM gas driven pump 17x15x12.

Pacer Water Pump — 8700 GPH, 148cc, 2in., Model# SEB2PLE3C | Clear Water | Northern Tool + Equipment#

Here's a discussion I started awhile back asking about different possibilities for disaster pumps:

Another Bilge Pump Thread

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Old 28-11-2010, 11:08   #53
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kismet-

That happened at the first of the month (several days after departing on the 6th).

The Celedon rescue was on the 26th.
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Old 28-11-2010, 12:06   #54
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How anyone goes offshore in one of these flat bilged 'Modern' boats with no decent sump amazes me.
Like this......... The modern boats are dry unless there is a problem. Then we usually know before it gets out of hand.


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Old 28-11-2010, 12:50   #55
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Like this......... The modern boats are dry unless there is a problem. Then we usually know before it gets out of hand.
.
Quite, your bilge looks like ours. We can't even fit most blge pumps because the height of the hull to the floor boards is only 3 inches

Instead like you we have two strum boxes on hoses that lead to the pumps.

I wonder what Roverhi considered offshore? we have no problem crossing to a foreign country in our flat bottomed shallow bilged hull. We even two keels to add to the risk of loosing a keel

In practise of course anything over about 30 gallons will quickly become obvious as our feet will get wet. In addition we have a small auto bilge pump under the engine, which I suspect is the most likely area for water ingress if a hose gives way. This pumps into the cockpit quickly alerting us. It won't save the boat on its own, that's the job of the other pumps, but it will alert us.

Agree with Boatman, that photo isn't F8.

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Old 28-11-2010, 16:42   #56
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This pumps into the cockpit quickly alerting us. It won't save the boat on its own, that's the job of the other pumps, but it will alert us.
Pete
That's a good idea!!!! I think I'll put it on my list of 'To Do Projects'.

I'm considering adding a large pump to the diesel that will engage with a clutch. Keeping a boat afloat long enough to do repair work or a rescue is a high priority on my list. If one could even get to a boat lift, that would be ideal.

My low point is just behind the mast. You can slightly see the top of the E-pump next to the cross beam.
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Old 28-11-2010, 18:47   #57
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This pumps into the cockpit quickly alerting us.
Actually you should be quite careful with that. If the boat is pooped or knocked down, it provides a path for the water to down flood the boat from the cockpit.

The ISAF special regs absolutely prohibit "A bilge pump outlet pipe shall not be connected to a cockpit drain." It's not quite so bad if the pump outlet is higher in the cockpit, but it still represents a downflooding risk and you need a decently high loop (which makes the bilge pump less efficient).

When you put holes in your boat you always need to think about how the water will flow if the boat is on her side or the cockpit absolutely full of water.
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Old 28-11-2010, 19:39   #58
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Actually you should be quite careful with that. If the boat is pooped or knocked down, it provides a path for the water to down flood the boat from the cockpit.
Not if you put in a check valve just before the outlet or put the outlet at the top of the cockpit bulwark. My E-pump is very small (1/2" hose) and is only designed to basically pump out the rain water that comes down the mast, if any. The 2" whale pump hose is for the big stuff.

So plumbing it to the cockpit would be no worse then the gaps around the hatch board if it were to have a knock down.
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Old 28-11-2010, 20:02   #59
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This is a very strange story. Boat abandoned with three inches of water down below, and not possible to find the leak.

On Exit Only, I have 11 through hulls and there is a bung attached to every single through hull. I keep a drawing in a secure location so that I can locate all through hulls in an emergency to put a bung in a broken off skin fitting. I have enough bungs on board Exit Only to plug every hole in the yacht from the inside and the outside.

I carried a giant glob of toilet wax to jam up the stern tube if that was the source of flooding.

Back siphoning in hoses can be plugged with bungs in the external openings of the hull.

Every yacht should know where all the leaks are possible on the yacht and have materials and a plan to stop those leaks.

If you run into a container and make a hole in the yacht, that's a different story. But mysterious leaks where you can't find the source, but you have time to call a helicopter - doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps they were not familiar with their yacht, lacked bungs, or didn't have a systematic plan to deal with leaks in skin fittings or stern tube.
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Old 29-11-2010, 02:49   #60
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Some in this thread have raised the possibility of a departing keel as the cause of the ingress of water. From my experience, this is highly unlikely. Bolted keel problems provide plenty of warning signs over plenty of time - they don't just suddenly fail (unless they are undersized when built, and that would not be the case with a Beneteau). Keel bolts start to leak only once electrolysis has eaten away at them, thus allowing for movement to begin. Little leaks become big leaks over time but one would be so used to the sight of water in the bilge by then that it could never cause alarm.

With such keels, the normal practice is to remove one keel bolt each haulout for inspection - a different one each time. You can be sure all bolts will be in a similar condition. Keel bolts are always highly over-specified in boat designs. I have seen keels still holding on when no more than a quarter of the original diameter is left - and in this case they were the original galvanised bolts on a boat built more than thirty years prior.

One poster suggested that it's safer to buy encapsulated keels. I've had both but I've always felt safer with the bolt-ons because I knew I had inspected them and knew they were sound. With the encapsulated keel, you've just got to hope that nothing untoward is happening in there out of sight. Because you won't really know what state such a keel is in till the keel hits something harder than it.
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