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Old 27-11-2010, 14:10   #31
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SailNet (july 11,2001) says look for leaks in the deck especially through the stanchion posts. If there has ever been heavy water ingress, you should look for rot in the lower parts of the bulkheads on the Beneteau 456.
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Old 27-11-2010, 14:44   #32
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In addition to the above structural problems which may cause a yacht to flood and sink, likely causes of external leaks include hoses & fittings; thru hull fittings; engine water intake; scuppers & attached hoses; propeller shaft & stuffing box; marine head/toilet; centreboard trunk; rudder attach points ; and collision/ grounding ;according to Matt Maloy online - he also says the discovery of salt water on the wrong side of the hull is a reason for concern....whereas an interior fresh water leak is unlikely to cause a boat to sink" He advises notify the crew, make repairs & head for port. Further comment by cruiser forum member - 90 miles out under sail at the Beneteau 456's hull speed of 8 knots, is still 11 hours & likely more. So reaction to an interior flooding close to shore, (where rowing/swimming/grounding is feasible), is completely different from reaction to a sudden flooding of the interior offshore on the Continental Shelf & on the High Seas..
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Old 27-11-2010, 18:33   #33
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My bilge pump began to backflow into the boat when the one way check valve stuck partially open. Let in a prodigious amount of water and cycled the pump every few pumps. When I discovered the source of the water intrusion, not quickly as the pump was constantly under water and the source of the water water intrusion wasn't obvious, I pulled up the bilge pump hose to form a loop above the water line which cured the back flow problem. Later added an Anti-Syphon valve and new hose to insure that it wouldn't happen again.

How anyone goes offshore in one of these flat bilged 'Modern' boats with no decent sump amazes me.
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Old 27-11-2010, 20:41   #34
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Some pump mfrs specifically say NOT to install check valves
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Old 28-11-2010, 02:14   #35
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It just strikes me as hubris to imply that those sitting on the sidelines armchair quarterbacking would have handled it differently because they are "saltier" or have larger testicles or what ever.
I think my bollocks are within the normal range and I know just how exhausting the sea can be and also how exhaustion ruins good thought but...I still don't understand how a boat can call a legitimate mayday when there is just ankle deep water in the bilge and pumping is holding the level steady. Further, it was first light so you'd think they would just set a course for land and keep pumping while looking to stem the flow. If they found subsequently that they were losing the battle, then that would justify the call.

But while trying not to sound too holy, isn't self reliance a core skill of seamanship and testing that skill one of the reasons for going to sea? And shouldn't all resources be exhausted entirely before putting a hand up for rescue? We don't want rescues at sea to become like calling for roadside assistance - how humiliating

So without passing judgement on this particular case, because not enough is known about it, I think a mayday call should be reserved for circumstances more dire than those which seem to have confronted this crew. What do others think?
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Old 28-11-2010, 03:11   #36
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If the photo in the second link was taken at the time of the rescue, were are the 40 knot winds and 12 foot seas?

On this side of the pond F4 produces white waves. If the wind was 40 knots that's F8, or averaging wind speed F7 but still big breaking waves which I just don't see in that photo.

Agree with RTB, shame they couldn't hold it together to get her the 90 miles back home, but we weren't on board. Sea sickness, darkness, water coming in you can't find and an exhausted crew. They would have known they would probably loose the boat if they abandoned, so that decision won't have been taken lightly.

Shame, but at least they are still around to tell the tale.

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Old 28-11-2010, 04:10   #37
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I think a mayday call should be reserved for circumstances more dire than those which seem to have confronted this crew. What do others think?
Probably like most here I like to think I would abandon ship only after doing everythig anyone could ever have done. and by climbing up the mast - to the liferaft

But, life never seems to be so simple.

In practice the prudent decision to abandon ship needs making whilst the ship is still afloat (and therefore probably still has some chance of being saved) simply to give the rescuers time to arrive whilst the crew are still alive. and at that decision point all the facts may not be known. (that 3 inches of water above the floorboards may be a leaky stern gland (which the pumps could match). or a loose keel about to drop off - could take a hour or more to work out. which time you may not have spare).

Easier decsions if only me to consider, but a lot more difficult if having to consider the safety of others as well. IMO no shame in taking the prudent option, no matter not what you would choose to do. Skipper's job to take decisions which even he may not like.

And at the end of the day it's only a boat, and probably insured. Wet feet and dented pride not a disasterous result.

Not to say that I am an advocate of the "press a magic button and help will arrive" school of thought. But that is more to do with it fostering a belief that someone else will always be able extract folk from a mess, including of their own making from a belief that "safety" can be provided from a magic button rather than from between the ears.
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Old 28-11-2010, 05:06   #38
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Seems one of the lessons learned here is you can never have too many bilge pumps. Got me thinking about adding an emergency one to the two I already have on board. I agree with RTB and others that 90 miles offshore does not seem that great of a distance. But panic and fatigue are not a sailors friend. I'm sure that hovering Coast Guard helicopter looked mighty inviting especially when they know it was not going to stay there forever. Though I do have a couple of questions to add into the discussion that others may be able to answer:

1) I wonder if an additional bilge pump would have helped. Do Coast Guard rescue choppers carry one that they could have dropped? Maybe you have to ask.

2) If it was a loose keel. I wonder if some lines run around it and cinched up tight as possible via a winch(es) would have helped stem or reduce the leak until they could get more help from shore based water craft?

Seems it would be better to learn as much from this incident now so we don't have to learn at sea.
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Old 28-11-2010, 05:26   #39
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#1 Unless rules have changed cg not in salvage business,(our litigating ways).#2I would doubt that would work,most likely flop around.Everyone should ck keel bolts,or better yet buy boats with encapsulated keek.marc
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Old 28-11-2010, 07:14   #40
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"At the time of rescue, winds were blowing at 40 knots, with seas running six to eight feet, said Weydert."
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Old 28-11-2010, 07:15   #41
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What DOJ said! If you wait too long to call for help, you might just be out of luck. I'm not one for randomly pushing the panic button as I am aware than anytime the CG affects a rescue, they are putting themselves in danger. Not something I take lightly.

I don't understand why they issued a Mayday as opposed to a Pan Pan but I was not there. We have a 7 month old baby in our house who does not sleep. I've not slept more than 3 hours in 7 months and there are times I know that my decision making skills are impacted. Fatigue can really, really impair your judgement.

We are putting in redundant bilge pumps for this very scenario. We also have 2 manuals on board just in case.

I can imagine that if they were working the manual pumps and seemed to be getting no headway, panic could easily set in. If they were fatigued, that would only exacerbate the problem. There are definitely lessons to be learned but I think we need to have a bit of compassion for those involved. I would not only be anxious and frightened at the prospect of losing my boat, it would break my heart.
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Old 28-11-2010, 07:31   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimsy View Post
What DOJ said! If you wait too long to call for help, you might just be out of luck. I'm not one for randomly pushing the panic button as I am aware than anytime the CG affects a rescue, they are putting themselves in danger. Not something I take lightly.

I don't understand why they issued a Mayday as opposed to a Pan Pan but I was not there. We have a 7 month old baby in our house who does not sleep. I've not slept more than 3 hours in 7 months and there are times I know that my decision making skills are impacted. Fatigue can really, really impair your judgement.

We are putting in redundant bilge pumps for this very scenario. We also have 2 manuals on board just in case.

I can imagine that if they were working the manual pumps and seemed to be getting no headway, panic could easily set in. If they were fatigued, that would only exacerbate the problem. There are definitely lessons to be learned but I think we need to have a bit of compassion for those involved. I would not only be anxious and frightened at the prospect of losing my boat, it would break my heart.
Unknown... did she have electric bilge pumps.. one assumes not... a few hours pumping is not that bad... if your holding your own...
The boat in question has maybe 6inches max below the floor so in the scale of things.. not a lot of water...
Why did they put out a MayDay and not a PanPan requesting stations stand-by and Relay...
Why did they not then head for the coast spelling each other one the pump... 1hr on 1hr off...
They had dinghy and liferaft... why not wait till situation was beyond staying afloat then call a MayDay and transfer to the Liferaft.
Interested to know if the folks on board were Owner + one crew or a Delivery crew.... somehow I cannot see an owner surrendering so easily

Ok Folks...
From the shore's.. of Yuctan... to the Sea's of Japan...
Hit me.. Hit me ...... HIT MEEEeeeeeeeeee
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Old 28-11-2010, 07:41   #43
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Interested to know if the folks on board were Owner + one crew or a Delivery crew.... somehow I cannot see an owner surrendering so easily
or maybe it was only a Beneteau?

One thing I don't understand is how they judged what progress (or not)bilge pump was making - given size of boat would have taken a while to shift enough water to notice, even without the boat / water rolling around. But I wasn't there.

Quote:
Ok Folks...
From the shore's.. of Yuctan... to the Sea's of Japan...
Hit me.. Hit me ...... HIT MEEEeeeeeeeeee
I've told you before - CF has a thread for that sort of thing
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Old 28-11-2010, 08:29   #44
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Interesting to see how the speculation and rumors accumulate. I have a Bene first 456, and that is definitely not the boat in the picture--the 456 windows are long and narrow, and it has a masthead rig. The last 456's were made around 1985 or 1986--a 1991 Benteau 45 would have been a First 45f5, which better matches the boat in the picture.

My Bene came with a Plastimo manual bilge pump, which is a piece of junkl--after fixing it a couple of times I finally replaced it with another brand. I have two electric pumps as well. It wouldn't surprise me at all if their manual pump didn't work.

Its hard to second guess, but in their situation, if the bilge pumps didn't keep up, I would have hove to and worked on emptying the bilge to find the source of the leak. I would have taken the engine water intake off the thru-hull and pumped with that before I got on the radio.

The boat is probably still afloat out there.
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Old 28-11-2010, 09:05   #45
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Reply to message about PANPAN - this is not appropriate when a yacht is expected to sink & the crew needs rescuing. As of Sunday morning the USCG in Elizabeth City NC states there have been no reported sightings of the Celadon since the rescue. This leads one to believe that she in all likelihood went down, making the MAYDAY the correct call, not PANPAN which is used for demasting & rudder difficulties.
Area salvagers reportedly only venture offshore after bigger, more valuable & newer yachts if it's believed they can be quickly patched & towed. Nothing in this loss indicates the need for a patch. Keel bolt failure is the most common "thread" discussed on Cruisers Forum.
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