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Old 01-06-2011, 15:42   #91
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pirate Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

Quote:
Originally Posted by YADO View Post
I found this comment posted about one of the sailors at:
Coast Guard Rescues 2 Men Off Nantucket Coast CBS Boston

"This is Gunther from SY ULTIMA. Manfred is a friend of mine and I know, he is a very experienced sailor. He has crossed the North Atlantic last year with me in my SY ULTIMA and we also had bad weather, but never a problem, to handle it. So I don`t know, what happened really? But I know., Manfred is expierenced and has been sailing before a yacht single handed from Trinidad to Australia. There must have been problems with the boat?"
Sounds like the standard explanation for these events...
Mind a mast coming down does freak one a bit... maybe further out they'd have tried a bit harder... or... maybe not...
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Old 01-06-2011, 16:19   #92
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Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Evans, . . . The guys sailing it said screw it, it ain't my piece of junk, let's go home. No effort was made to jury rig a spar, no effort was made to pump the water by hand and no effort was made to make the boat tight. Suprised?
I suspect you are right - the delivery crew just wanted to get off. I was actually responding to the post below, trying to suggest what sort of gear might actually have been helpful in this situation. Generally its pretty low tech tools and repair materials rather than flashy 'safety, communication and navigation technology'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by category4jay View Post
When I sail off to ports unknown I will carry with me every piece of safety, communication, and navigation technology I can purchase.
Let's think about what might have been useful in this particular situation.

First, a crash/trash pump would allowed them to pump the boat dry and keep it dry even with some significant leaks. Althoigh in this case, the boat does not look all that wet and a simple manual bilge pump would probably have done the job.

Second, hydraulic cable cutters to cut the rig lose.

Third, some sheets of marine plywood (or better fiberglass) and waterproof cloth with a battery drill and bits and large assortment of sheet metal screws and bolts and epoxy and caulking - to fix the broken hatches and deadlights.

Fourth, a honda generator and a securely stowed jug of gas and a securely stowed smallish back-up battery charger, to provide power until the main circuit breakers and battery bank are dried out. And a bunch of wd40 and dry towels and a heat gun to dry the main breakers and batteries and get the electrical system working again. And spare wire and connectors and crimp tools to by-pass any dead bits you can't bring back to life.

Fifth, Necessary tools and bits to get the engine back working. Probably it will be just fine once you get power back to the starter but . . . You might have to pump water out of the diesel tanks - so small pump, tank fitting and hose. You might have to bleed the engine - so appropriate wrenches. You might have to disassemble and clear/dry and reassemble the starter - appropriate wrenches and cleaner (there is also a very nice aftermarket 'spring starter' that will crank up to a 100hp diesel). It might have moved on its mounts, so appropriate wrenches to do a very rough alignment.

Sixth, spare autopilot(s) and spare gps(s) and spare chart(s) of likely back-up/emergency landfalls.

Seventh, medical kit - it sounds like the crew was in fact fine, just a bit scared and banged up. But you might need splints to deal with broken bones, and bandaging and butterfly's and antiseptic cleaner for head (and other) gashes, and serious pain killer.

Eight, possibility to Jerry rig - some long lengths of 10mm spectra single braid for rigging, hack saw and many spare blades and an electric grinder to cut and shape and smooth the spars, banding tool to splint pieces, drill and padeyes and taps and machine screws and eye bolts for the rigging attachments, sewing supplies (needles and thread and sail palm) and grommet kit and spare spectra sail cloth and webbing, and good scissors and knife and hot knife to cut and reinforce reinforce Jerry sails.

Ninth, either a drogue or a para-anchor to lie to while fixing the boat (or waiting for rescue). Much more stable than lying beam on. And they might have used this before they got into trouble and avoided the whole situation.

Tenth, then I think I get to the sat phone with speed dial to an MD, the RCC where your epirb is registered, your family, and a friendly engine repair mechanic and an electrician.

None of these jobs is particularly difficult. The Jerry rigging probably requires the most seamanship but was probably not necessary because they were within motoring range of shore.

So, that's the list (just off the top of my head) of 'safety' gear that would have been useful in this particular situation. Of course there is much additional gear that could be useful in other quite different 'safety' emergencies.
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Old 01-06-2011, 16:52   #93
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pirate Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
I suspect you are right - the delivery crew just wanted to get off. I was actually responding to the post below, trying to suggest what sort of gear might actually have been helpful in this situation. Generally its pretty low tech tools and repair materials rather than flashy 'safety, communication and navigation technology'.



Let's think about what might have been useful in this particular situation.

First, a crash/trash pump would allowed them to pump the boat dry and keep it dry even with some significant leaks. Althoigh in this case, the boat does not look all that wet and a simple manual bilge pump would probably have done the job.

Second, hydraulic cable cutters to cut the rig lose.

Third, some sheets of marine plywood (or better fiberglass) and waterproof cloth with a battery drill and bits and large assortment of sheet metal screws and bolts and epoxy and caulking - to fix the broken hatches and deadlights.

Fourth, a honda generator and a securely stowed jug of gas and a securely stowed smallish back-up battery charger, to provide power until the main circuit breakers and battery bank are dried out. And a bunch of wd40 and dry towels and a heat gun to dry the main breakers and batteries and get the electrical system working again. And spare wire and connectors and crimp tools to by-pass any dead bits you can't bring back to life.

Fifth, Necessary tools and bits to get the engine back working. Probably it will be just fine once you get power back to the starter but . . . You might have to pump water out of the diesel tanks - so small pump, tank fitting and hose. You might have to bleed the engine - so appropriate wrenches. You might have to disassemble and clear/dry and reassemble the starter - appropriate wrenches and cleaner (there is also a very nice aftermarket 'spring starter' that will crank up to a 100hp diesel). It might have moved on its mounts, so appropriate wrenches to do a very rough alignment.

Sixth, spare autopilot(s) and spare gps(s) and spare chart(s) of likely back-up/emergency landfalls.

Seventh, medical kit - it sounds like the crew was in fact fine, just a bit scared and banged up. But you might need splints to deal with broken bones, and bandaging and butterfly's and antiseptic cleaner for head (and other) gashes, and serious pain killer.

Eight, possibility to Jerry rig - some long lengths of 10mm spectra single braid for rigging, hack saw and many spare blades and an electric grinder to cut and shape and smooth the spars, banding tool to splint pieces, drill and padeyes and taps and machine screws and eye bolts for the rigging attachments, sewing supplies (needles and thread and sail palm) and grommet kit and spare spectra sail cloth and webbing, and good scissors and knife and hot knife to cut and reinforce reinforce Jerry sails.

Ninth, either a drogue or a para-anchor to lie to while fixing the boat (or waiting for rescue). Much more stable than lying beam on. And they might have used this before they got into trouble and avoided the whole situation.

Tenth, then I think I get to the sat phone with speed dial to an MD, the RCC where your epirb is registered, your family, and a friendly engine repair mechanic and an electrician.

None of these jobs is particularly difficult. The Jerry rigging probably requires the most seamanship but was probably not necessary because they were within motoring range of shore.

So, that's the list (just off the top of my head) of 'safety' gear that would have been useful in this particular situation. Of course there is much additional gear that could be useful in other quite different 'safety' emergencies.
And this is in the perfect scenario...
the reality for a delivery skipper is usually a box full of rusty half useless tools... and whatevers on the boat when you boarded after a 5+hr flight with just your baggage allowance...
Broken hatches/portlights.... use storm jib and lines for deck leaks, stuff towels in broken ports...
Try to salvage as much of the mast as possible... you'll need it for your jury rig... the boom at the very least...
Secure topsides and if possible set up a drag of the stern with lines, fenders and small kedge top trail a sunken loop..
Go below and start cleaning up... wipe batteries and connections dry + WD40... once water is removed as much as possible from boat take a break.. grab a hot drink and a bite to eat... coupla ciggies... if they're dry...
Then if there's light still... plant the boom in the hole in the remaining bit of mast... and secure... rig white all round light... use your imagination.. improvise... a torch, a wire coat hanger and a white T-shirt makes a fair lamp... if not possible set 2hr watches for lookout for other vessels and signal position with flashlight.
By daybreak all should have dried enough to try starting the engine... if its a no go... time to start rigging your sail... conditions permitting...
If the storm jibs all you have ... thank the gods you did not cut it up the night before... and stuff the hatches with cut up bunk cushions... don't matter if it drips a bit.. right now survival outweighs comfort by 100%
Then start heading back to shore...
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Old 01-06-2011, 17:28   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seahunter

Close, it was a Beneteau, probably a 42S, the pics aren't too good, but you can basically see the situation. In mast furling, light rigging one can surmise the rest. Shots were taken by the crew and posted.

The happy crew shot before they departed
<img src="http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27965"/>

Remains of the mast (note foresail drifting off bow)
<img src="http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27966"/>

A little wet, but fairly clean inside
<img src="http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27967"/>
Doesn't look like a Beneteau to me windows are wrong. Looks like a Hunter

As to PEPIRBs what ate they , surely you mean PLBs . These do not have MMSIs. But are registered To the person

Where I come from MoB is treated in cold water as a Mayday hence EPIRB is activated

121mhzs EPIRBS are no longer made and the Cosparsarsat system no longer detects them.

Dave
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Old 02-06-2011, 06:38   #95
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Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

Quote:
From Noonsite:
...They phoned a German rescue station ...


I can't be the only person who thought of this when they read that statement...




In all seriousness though, I'm truly sorry to hear about the loss of another's dream, especially when I'm still trying to put mine together. I was happy to hear they were rescued successfully.

It's also my first post after lurking here about a year
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Old 02-06-2011, 07:52   #96
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Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
G'Day Mark,

I've seen the ads in Sydney Afloat saying that use of a 121.5 MHz epirb is now banned, and wondered about it ... this ruling is unique to Australia .... much like Qld saying that it is an offence to have out of date flares on board, whilst the USCG has recommended keeping them as a supplement to your in-date flares. Go figger...
Jim, you're making me homesick! It sure sounds like Australia

LOL
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Old 02-06-2011, 16:57   #97
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Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Doesn't look like a Beneteau to me windows are wrong. Looks like a Hunter

As to PEPIRBs what ate they , surely you mean PLBs . These do not have MMSIs. But are registered To the person

Where I come from MoB is treated in cold water as a Mayday hence EPIRB is activated

121mhzs EPIRBS are no longer made and the Cosparsarsat system no longer detects them.

Dave
You can see the Bennie logo on the bow near the boot stripe. 121 PPIRBS may not be made but they're still out there. My point is that PLBs are not as good as EPIRBS, mainly becaue of their power rating. Either way it's a non issue as I could care less what other people use as safety equipment. The bottom line is that for the most part, these guys went out in an ill prepared boat and were rescued on our dime.
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Old 02-06-2011, 17:23   #98
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Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

I agree the the boat was not in the condition it should have been for that type of sailing. I don't believe that the crew was paying attention to the conditions they were sailing in. Hoping that new comers to blue water cruising understand that you can have an inexpensive boat, an expensive boat, a small boat or a big one but if you don't put the effort into making it seaworthy and you and your crews sea knowledgeable you can put a lot more men and women in harms way. There really are too many boats crossing oceans that should not be doing so. Most make it just fine but there is a lot of ill prepared boats and skippers always asking for help, be it engine, sail or rigging problems or just calling out for fuel or water in the middle of nowhere. Usually it's the same people time after time.
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Old 02-06-2011, 19:07   #99
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Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

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Originally Posted by Seahunter View Post
My point is that PLBs are not as good as EPIRBS, mainly becaue of their power rating. .
Again, your point is just plain wrong.
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Old 02-06-2011, 20:48   #100
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Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

Look at the boot.

Hunter Sailboats &ndash; North America's largest manufacturer of sailboats from 15 to 50 feet



They probably crash jibed it and folded the rig (no backstay). Down it comes and the parties over.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seahunter View Post
Close, it was a Beneteau, probably a 42S, the pics aren't too good, but you can basically see the situation. In mast furling, light rigging one can surmise the rest. Shots were taken by the crew and posted.

The happy crew shot before they departed
Attachment 27965

Remains of the mast (note foresail drifting off bow)
Attachment 27966

A little wet, but fairly clean inside
Attachment 27967
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Old 02-06-2011, 21:10   #101
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Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

Well, you know they all look the same. I don't disagree with your analysis, however, the Eva has a backstay, look again.
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Old 02-06-2011, 21:13   #102
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pirate Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

Yup.... shes a Hunter alright... so the running backstay knockoff is not that strong... good to know for future reference...
only had one experience of this rig and thought it was OK... but never tried in heavyish weather...
a definite reef early boat... cheers..
Seahunter.... I can see a topping lift but not a backstay...
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Old 03-06-2011, 00:15   #103
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Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

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Quote:
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My point is that PLBs are not as good as EPIRBS, mainly becaue of their power rating.
Again, your point is just plain wrong.
EPIRBs and PLBs transmit at the same power for both the 403 MHz and 121MHz signals.

Where they are different is that PLBs have a smaller battery and thus shorter transmit time, they may not float, they usually need to be held in the proper orientation and the antenna manually extended, and they don't auto-activate (as some EPIRBs do). PLBs are also smaller and less expensive than EPIRBs.

You have to decide which best suits your needs, but either one will trigger a response from the SAR authorities.
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Old 03-06-2011, 11:02   #104
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Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

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EPIRBs and PLBs transmit at the same power for both the 403 MHz and 121MHz signals.

Where they are different is that PLBs have a smaller battery and thus shorter transmit time, they may not float, they usually need to be held in the proper orientation and the antenna manually extended, and they don't auto-activate (as some EPIRBs do). PLBs are also smaller and less expensive than EPIRBs.

You have to decide which best suits your needs, but either one will trigger a response from the SAR authorities.
That's exactly right. There is nothing "worse" about them except for the differences Paul mentioned.
I have PLB on my boat as my main locator. I realize differences between units and I decided to live with it..
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:15   #105
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Re: Rogue Wave Swamps Cruising Yacht

Have the PLBs been proven to work anywhere in the world as well as an EPIRB? Or should the PLB be used more for trips let's say from Seattle to Alaska or Florida to the Bahamas?
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