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Old 16-08-2008, 09:50   #31
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I’m considering a world cruise and security does worry me.
I like the idea of initially lighting up the boat and making as much noise as possible while you are still below decks. I wonder though, if that would have been enough to scare off these murders, and whether there is anything else which could be rigged, without having to confront them personally. Perhaps a rattle of machine gun fire over your tannoy?
Has anyone actually used pepper spray in defense, under what circumstances, and was it successful?
I’m glad to hear the other culprits were found and dealt with summarily, but I hope we might get more information about the exact circumstances of the attack on Daniel and Nancy, so we can at least learn something from it.
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Old 16-08-2008, 10:24   #32
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I’m glad to hear the other culprits were found and dealt with summarily
I guess I am in the minority, but vigilante justice makes me feel less secure not more.
Mob rule means that the mob is your judge, jury and executioner and when enforced in such immediate and passionate circumstances, that is not my definition of justice.
This sort of violence both frightens me and makes me ill.
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Old 16-08-2008, 12:36   #33
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This likely will not be of interest to most people as it has more to do building a giant trimaran in the jungle adjacent to the Rio Dolce in 80's. But you can see how the area has changed over the years. And if you whack off the last part of the URL you get the Rio Dolce information site.

The building of Mark Hassall's Searunner named That
Incredible story.

I know I am a Wuss after reading that.
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Old 16-08-2008, 13:56   #34
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I must say I also had that feeling, and I agree, justice can’t normally operate that way. The only thing regarding the two who were killed is, were they part of the gang? Maybe the other two ratted on them, maybe Nancy was able to identify them, maybe they resisted arrest, who knows until we hear more? The reports I read don't actually sound like vigilante justice, if the authorities tracked them down and there was a firefight, and if they were indeed part of the thugs who hacked a guy to death in front of his wife on his own boat, then stabbed her, they deserve everything they got.
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Old 16-08-2008, 14:12   #35
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Ummmm.....

If it is reasonably safe why do the marinas have armed guards?
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Old 16-08-2008, 15:05   #36
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In Central and South America it is quite common to have private guards and wachmen, often armed, looking out for security at establishments and even private homes.
Look at it the other way around, it is reasonably secure because there are armed guards otherwise it would be less (secure).
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Old 16-08-2008, 17:10   #37
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In regards Little Boat’s comment, above, some seem to believe—or would prefer—that punishing a criminal is naught but rightful vengeance. From a societal perspective such is not the case although "liberals" have used that implication to obstruct the deliverance of punishment with great success in western society and particularly so the US.

From a societal perspective, the objective of punishment is deterrence. Where punishment is swift and certain, all but a foolish few will curb their own behavior. Regrettably, the US suffers some of the highest incidences of violent crimes—regardless of how/why motivated—simply because punishment is neither certain nor swift—even where the guilt of the criminal is beyond any doubt what-so-ever. Moreover, as, when, and if, a punishment is administered, it is so in near total secrecy rather than publicly—which, while perhaps disconcerting, would far better serve the cause of deterrence. (Is it not ironic that broadcasting the execution of a criminal, which now most often consists of nothing more than administering an IV injection after which the criminal simply drops off to sleep/death, is considered too gruesome but Hollywood routinely portrays the most horrible blood and gore spattering violence in graphic detail and simply says—“If it bothers you don't watch”?)

Where a crime "only" warrants imprisonment, “modern” penitentiaries have to be "humane", i.e. equipped with all manner of conveniences for the comfort, entertainment and accommodation of the "inmates", who are no longer penitents ordained to serve a penance but merely to sit out often foreshortened sentences, too often all but running the institutions of their incarceration.

As a practical matter Little Boat et al, "Vigilante Justice" only emerges in a society when the populace becomes incensed by a government that is unable or unwilling to enforce the law. Moreover, unfortunately, in many third world countries, the "authorities" (who are not uncommonly little more than criminals themselves) will only take action when victims are "people of importance", leaving the “unimportant” to fend for themselves—hence, armed guards ready, willing and encouraged to employ their arms rather than defer to the “authorities”. That is, perhaps, shameful but it is a reality that one must accept if one chooses to venture to such locales and should also serve as forewarning that one must be ready, able and willing to protect and defend oneself and one’s own when necessary. We are.



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Old 16-08-2008, 17:43   #38
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I didn't intend to debate how society punishes criminals; those conversations usually change no one's mind.
This is a tragic event for the Dryden family.
It is also very sad too, that a 14 year old boy has been 'summarily dealt' what some would call justice.
The Dryden family has a testimonial blog: in memory of daniel dryden II
where one can learn more about Daniel Dryden, who was very well loved and send condolances.
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Old 17-08-2008, 04:59   #39
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...Regrettably, the US suffers some of the highest incidences of violent crimes—regardless of how/why motivated—simply because punishment is neither certain nor swift ...
Eight years ago, America surpassed Russia to claim the dubious distinction of having the world's highest rate of incarceration.

More than 2.3 million Americans (±1% of all adults, or about one in 130 of ALL Americans ) are now (2008) in prison or jail.

Nearly one in four of all prisoners worldwide is incarcerated in America.
America also is the global leader in the rate at which it incarcerates its citizenry.

The US incarceration rate is more than five times that of England or Canada; while the homicide rate is still three times higher than England's or Australia's, and twice that of Canada.

Crime deterrence is a complicated issue, that cannot be understood nor explained with a few simple statistics; but there seems to be a serious disconnect between incarceration & disincentives.
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Old 17-08-2008, 06:24   #40
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gordmay is correct in his incarceration figures but broken down by crime (violent vs all other), non-violent criminals are in the vast majority...particularly drug-related offenders. if we were to spend the 40 billion (that we spend on law enforcement/judicial/incarceration of these offenders ) on treatment/education programs we could clear the prisons and avoid the societal problems associated w/ this. we need to review and CHANGE our archaic drug laws. look what education has done for smoking---we can accomplish the same thing w/ the drug situation if our leaders have the guts to tackle the issue...
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Old 17-08-2008, 07:21   #41
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I agree with defever. If I were king for a day I'd give prescriptions for (anesthetizing) drugs to all of the current junkies and take the balance of the “war on drugs” money to pay the compesinos to grow coffee, flowers et al to eliminate the supply. Cigarettes are no less addictive than any of the worst of the drugs yet there are no crime families running cigarette-rings and the state governments make a fortune on the taxes they charge (a $.13 cent package of cigarettes for $5.00?). The money from the illicit drug trade gives rise to the corruption of governmental authorities at up to even the highest levels—think Noriega—and the need for drug money gives rise to the vast majority of street crime.

In this mornings news was a story of fundraising efforts for the family of a 17 year old girl from Sarasota who was left blind, paralyzed and unable to speak after she was attacked while attempting to return books to the night drop at the local library by a black teenage thug with multiple previous arrests for vicious assaults. That kid should be run through a Hobart Machine set on fine grind—very slowing and feet first—but of course his “white knights” claim in his “defense” that he had a deprived childhood--he was a crack baby as his mother was a junkie--and that he was rendered “insane” by the self administered crack and so deserves leniency? This is justice? I’ll take the Guatemalan variety thank you. Its an effective deterrent and there are no repeat offenders!
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Old 17-08-2008, 07:41   #42
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Gord,

If there are 2.3 million Americans in US jails, what's the total number if you include the 27% of the jail population which consists of illegal aliens?

Mobeth:
Were the premise accurate, arithmetic would suggest something like 3 million.
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Old 17-08-2008, 09:38   #43
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A apologize for doing my part in helping to lead this thread astray.
The discussion about crime deterrence & punishment etc. is interesting, but has little to do with the tragic events in Guatemala.
Lets try to get back on subject.
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Old 17-08-2008, 09:53   #44
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A apologize for doing my part in helping to lead this thread astray.
The discussion about crime deterrence & punishment etc. is interesting, but has little to do with the tragic events in Guatemala.
Lets try to get back on subject.
OK.

We will follow your (new) lead.
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Old 17-08-2008, 10:02   #45
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I suppose it comes down to something as simple as this. If your fears will keep you from traveling where ever crime occurs than unfortunately you will not only probably never leave the dock but may even never spend a night on the boat.
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