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Old 20-12-2010, 12:53   #31
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Nuclear powered cargo ships? Fine on paper but what about all the ports that would not allow them entry? Greenpeace, CND and all the other 'tree huggers' would go nuts and blockade them!

As for the original idea, it won't happen for two big reasons I can think of.

1, Speed. Over 100 years ago sails were being replaced by steam for this very reason. If a ship takes twice as long to get a cargo somewhere, then to carry the same amount, you need twice the ships and twice the crews. This would largly wipe out any savings in fuel. Also, the actual ETA from far away ports would be almost impossible to work out as they would be at the mercy of the weather. The 'just in time' method used by many suppliers would fall apart if deliveries were a few months late.

2, Containers. The modern marine cargo industry is now relient on the container system. In a modern super container ship, they can pile them high above the deck line. A sailing vessel would need this to be left clear so that the sails could work and to keep the center of gravity down. Even the largest monohull sailing ships can heel quite a bit, stacking containers high up would make the whole design unstable.
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Old 20-12-2010, 13:01   #32
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Originally Posted by simonmd View Post
Nuclear powered cargo ships? Fine on paper but what about all the ports that would not allow them entry? Greenpeace, CND and all the other 'tree huggers' would go nuts and blockade them!
yeah.... I thought my mention of the brain cramps pretty well covered that.
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Old 20-12-2010, 20:26   #33
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A couple of guys and I explored the possibility at length a few years ago.

Cargo from the States to Bermuda

From South America to Miami

The major problems are the lack of break-bulk loading and unloading facilities.
Longshoremen of today are crane operators, container tie down people and drivers.

Port facilities are very time sensitive. You have x amount of time to load and unload.....Some ships coming to Baltimore are only here for several hours before they sail again.

There is no way you could have an American Flagged Vessel due to the laws etc.

Finally you can't compete on numbers....i.e. trips per year/time of trip/large skilled crew. The "nut" would be prohibitive.

Inter Island Sail........workable...but not very profitable
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Old 21-12-2010, 11:22   #34
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This old horse is trotted out about every 10~15 years as a new crop of greenies come about. They see the good, green, use of wind and figure it just has to be cheaper. It ain't, and it's one hell of a lot less efficient. This current story will die down and we'll see it again in about 10 years.



This test was over two years ago, seen any kite powered container ships?
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Old 21-12-2010, 12:47   #35
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The main engines already are moving the ship at hull speed. The sail can't power the ship by itself. The fuel savings are negligable. I have seen an automated sail design, it can be done. The extra time to cross oceans, is not as important as consistancy. Most transoceanic cargo is marked for arrival time within an hour, before it even leaves China its port unloading slot is allocated. With gloabal satelaite weather it may be possible to take out some of the uncertanty, but oil will have ot go up alot before that happens. They've been saying oil will run out for 30 years. Yet most known oil reserves are not allowed to be drilled for political reasons. Everywhere on the earths surface we've drilled we've found oil. drilling deeper finds even more oil. Current known reserves over 1 hundred years worth. Old oil fields in Texas that had depleted wells have been reopened, the wells refilled with oil from deep in the earth caught in pockets of rock just like they did the first time. We may run out of oil someday, but not in our lifetime. It may cost $10.00/gal, currently most of cost at pump is due to taxes, (over 70%-80%).
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Old 21-12-2010, 16:32   #36
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Correct-o-mundo capt bill. We have Oil on this planet for generations yet. We will eventually crack the specific energy density issue for electrical storage and when we do virtually overnight the internal combustion engine will disappear . The reason we use the IC engine is the magic of hydrocarbon energy density not the IC technology.

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Old 21-12-2010, 18:26   #37
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Sailing cargo and its future

Where we work in South East Asia with isolated island communities sail is still a very viable option. These people are where the rest of the world will be shortly - no access to fuel to burn. So they make the best of it and sail their cargos where they need to go. We also spend most of our time sailing cargos of educational and medical supplies averaging about 7,000 NM every year. To see more go to our blog at sailvega | 118 year old sailing vessel for humanitarian relief or website at Historical Vessel VEGA

I think what will happen is that as fuel prices hit the ceiling more and more people will add sails for the "long haul" or when the wind serves starting small and building up to the bigger vessels. Also as demands taper off with economic realities the need for gigantic vessels will also taper down making sail even more interesting. After all a cut or 50% in fuel bills would interest any ship owner - even today.
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Old 21-12-2010, 19:20   #38
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I think Vega is onto it.
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Old 21-12-2010, 22:25   #39
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I think Vega is onto it.
Why would "demand taper off" vega

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Old 22-12-2010, 06:14   #40
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Let me take a shot at this although I am not Vega.

Look at the Baltic Dry Index. When the economy tanked then the BDI tanked because we stopped "consuming." When the economy goes poor we stop consuming because most of what we consume is needless falderal.

As oil increases in price we export more and more dollars overseas. It is like an additional tax on all oil consumers. Also anything made of oil will become more expensive. That includes food, which requires much oil to grow. So it is as if there is an additional sales tax that does not go to our government but to other governments: Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia being the main ones.

Also, because we import so much oil we must spend much money on protecting the source of supply - the mid-East.

No economy can withstand that kind of continual negative drain so it is inevitable that we are facing sustained future recession, which will lead to further reduction in consumption, which will lead to further recession.

That is why demand will "taper off."
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Old 23-12-2010, 00:45   #41
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@ Hpeer: Bingo, you see it for what it is.

All the rest of those that see oil being a viable motive force for anything beyond about the next 10-20 years is deluding themselves. $10 a gallon fuel will kill any economy. Look what happened when it reached $4-5.

And any idea that technology is going to step in and save us is just dreaming. That little item I mentioned about a page back about the rare earths is going to put the hammerlock on more technology than you can shake a stick at. The world will be paying China for it and paying dearly in order to keep their industries going, and China will very shortly shut off that faucet permanently. You want rare earths for special magnets n such, no way. Buy the magnets from China. Either do so or get used to not having high tech industry. Period.

The times they are a changing and not for the better. We are living in the end of an era. The new era will not be high tech and pristine clean. It will be nasty and dirty and life as you and I know it is going to get infinitely harder. Enjoy it while you can.


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Old 23-12-2010, 04:55   #42
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Originally Posted by SabreKai
@ Vega: +1

@ Hpeer: Bingo, you see it for what it is.

All the rest of those that see oil being a viable motive force for anything beyond about the next 10-20 years is deluding themselves. $10 a gallon fuel will kill any economy. Look what happened when it reached $4-5.

And any idea that technology is going to step in and save us is just dreaming. That little item I mentioned about a page back about the rare earths is going to put the hammerlock on more technology than you can shake a stick at. The world will be paying China for it and paying dearly in order to keep their industries going, and China will very shortly shut off that faucet permanently. You want rare earths for special magnets n such, no way. Buy the magnets from China. Either do so or get used to not having high tech industry. Period.

The times they are a changing and not for the better. We are living in the end of an era. The new era will not be high tech and pristine clean. It will be nasty and dirty and life as you and I know it is going to get infinitely harder. Enjoy it while you can.

Sabre
O for goodness sake what apoplectic nonsense. Here in Europe gas is close to 10 dollars a gallon and still rising yet I don't see the end of our " high tech world".

Please this is not a reasoned or validated point of view.
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Old 23-12-2010, 05:40   #43
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@ Hpeer: Bingo, you see it for what it is.


And another one.

Already we see more people buying local for all sorts of reasons. As the proportionate costs of transport go up, as they are all the time, the shipping issues will change their role in the equation, and alternative means of shipping will become more interesting. It is not only the sources of energy whichhave to change. We have to change too - what we buy, why we buy it, what we throw away ...
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Old 23-12-2010, 05:50   #44
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Originally Posted by Roaring Girl
@ Vega: +1

@ Hpeer: Bingo, you see it for what it is.

And another one.

Already we see more people buying local for all sorts of reasons. As the proportionate costs of transport go up, as they are all the time, the shipping issues will change their role in the equation, and alternative means of shipping will become more interesting. It is not only the sources of energy whichhave to change. We have to change too - what we buy, why we buy it, what we throw away ...
Well sea shipping costs are lower now then another recent time. I dont agree with your shop local concept. It's a nice warm idea not backed by reality. We live in an increasingly globaliser world. , local now is a very big radius indeed the rise of distance selling over the Internet shows that. We will solve the transport issue ultimately with electricity there's no going back progress has never reset it self . The future is not " the road " nor will it ( unfortunately) be a return to " unpowered" transport at sea or anywhere else

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Old 23-12-2010, 07:13   #45
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Sailing cargo way too slow

A class 8 container ship has a minimum cruise speed of 23kt. A class 1 ship minimum is 17kt.

What average wind speeds do you need?

example:
Technical Data Length over all: 335.00 m Breadth: 42.81 m Draught Scantling: 14.50 m Deadweight: 100,800 ts Speed: 25.3 kn Main Engine: Hyundai-Sulzer 12K98MC Fuel Oil Consumption: 247.8 ts/day Cruising Range: 23,000 NM Container Capacity
on Deck:

4,369 TEU in Hold: 3,835 TEU Total: 8,204 TEU Stability (14 ts hom.): 6,330 TEU Reefer Capacity: 700 Plugs
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