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Old 24-06-2019, 07:48   #76
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

If you and other fellow cruisers are concerned about the Panama Canal Transit Fee Increases, the best option available is to submit your comments by email to them at customerelations@pancanal.com by 15 July 2019.

We submitted our suggestions by email and they acknowledged it with a response letter – see attached.
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Old 24-06-2019, 07:51   #77
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

[QUOTE=GordMay;2915489][QUOTE=mat jam;2915477]
You've got to be kidding! An anonymous internet seer, using publicly available - but undisclosed information, is your source?

From deagel.com
“... We assume that the official data, especially economic, released by governments is fake, cooked or distorted in some degree ...”
[/]


You are free to believe what you want.
Have you actually done your homework? Have you traced where they are located? And who they are? I suspect not. Nobody is asking anyone to believe anything. But if you know anything about the economic system and its current situation I suspect your response would be different. I have offered my creds - please tell us yours so we may decide who is better able to judge.
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Old 24-06-2019, 08:34   #78
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

[QUOTE=[B]mat jam[/B];2915431]
Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Let me guess, the finacials posted by the Panama Canal Authority are just part of a massive misinformation scheme?[/QTE]

It is safe to assume most companies/corps are fudging their books with creating accounting. Why do you think the US is postering like a gangster asking for tributes?

The increase in traffic currently is from trying to hoard supplies for the inevitable shock that is around the corner.
MAT JAM:

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH - Buffalo Springfield.

It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
. . .



https://www.pancanal.com/eng/general...Report-Rev.pdf

Klynveld Peat Marwick Goerdeler [KPMG]:

INDEPENDENT AUDITORS’ REPORT

To the Board of Directors of
The Panama Canal Authority

Opinion

We have audited the financial statements of the Autoridad del Canal de Panamá, (the “ACP”), which comprise the statement of financial position as of September 30, 2018, the income statement, and statements of comprehensive income, changes in equity and cash flows for the year then ended, and notes, comprising significant accounting policies and other explanatory information.
In our opinion, the accompanying financial statements present fairly, in all material respects, the financial position of the ACP as of September 30, 2018, and its financial performance and its cash flows for the year then ended in accordance with International Financial Reporting Standards (IFRS).

Basis for Opinion

We conducted our audit in accordance with International Standards on Auditing (ISAs). Our responsibilities under those standards are further described in the Auditors’ Responsibilities for the Audit of the Financial Statements section of our
report. We are independent of the ACP in accordance with International Ethics Standards Board for Accountants Code of Ethics for Professional Accountants (IESBA Code) together with the ethical requirements that are relevant to our audit of
the financial statements in the Republic of Panama and we have fulfilled our other ethical responsibilities in accordance with these requirements and the IESBA Code. We believe that the audit evidence we have obtained is sufficient and appropriate to provide a basis for our opinion.
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Old 24-06-2019, 08:36   #79
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Oh yeah...taking as fact postings on a very suspect web site and siting unspecified sources....Im familiar w that mode of thinking...I have few conspiracy theorist aquaintances...always long on conspiracy theories and short on verifiable facts.
You see the thing is if you actually understand how the world economy works you would not make such comments. No conspiracy theory here, just a healthy understanding of how things work and how they break down.
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Old 24-06-2019, 08:54   #80
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

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Originally Posted by mat jam View Post
You see the thing is if you actually understand how the world economy works you would not make such comments. No conspiracy theory here, just a healthy understanding of how things work and how they break down.
You've got a number of folks here who have started and run international companies and spent a good chunk of time not only studying things like the world economy but participating in it. It may be a bit of hubris for you to assert that you and apparently you alone understand "how the world economy works" and those of us who've actually been heavily involved in it don't. Or are we all part of the conspiracy too? The one that only you are clever and smart enough to grasp while the clueless sheeple that make up the rest of the world just won't ever have your capability to see through the lies that lie at the bottom of all corporate books?
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Old 24-06-2019, 08:58   #81
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

[QUOTE=redneckrob;2915704]You've got a number of folks here who have started and run international companies and spent a good chunk of time not only studying things like the world economy but participating in it. It may be a bit of hubris for you to assert that you and apparently you alone understand "how the world economy works" and those of us who've actually been heavily involved in it don't. Or are we all part of the conspiracy too? The one that only you are clever and smart enough to grasp while the clueless sheeple that make up the rest of the world just won't ever have your capability to see through the lies that lie at the bottom of all corporate books?[/QUOT]

No wrong in your thinking. My post was addressed to specific individuals. I see I have upset people with the assumption in the future.

Let me ask a simple question since you feel you are qualified.

What is the actual unemployment figure in the US?
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Old 24-06-2019, 08:59   #82
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Exactly, it is an If statement that you know to be false in real life and use to bloster your argument
I can only say that I did NOT know it to be false, I just couldn't find the data, so I made a conditional statement that was well within the realm of possibility.
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Old 24-06-2019, 09:45   #83
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

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Originally Posted by redneckrob View Post
I think some basic math/physics may be escaping here. Both the new locks and the old locks have to go up/down 85'. The amount of water necessary to lift/lower a ship 85' is 85XwidthXlength of the lock. It matters not a whit how deep the lock ultimately is!
Yes, I realize that the required elevation change is the same for both old and new locks. I based my initial statement on the info given by the PCA, which explains the operation of the water-saving basin system being used with the new locks. From that info, it appears that essentially the whole volume of water in the top lock is emptied into the lower level basins, to raise the water levels in the lower locks, which would require filling the entire volume with each cycle. I used that initial volume to compare the quoted 40% of water saved with the new locks to the total water used by the old.

If that's not the case, I'd like to understand it better.

I'd also like to apologize for adding to the thread drift, which started with the claim that the fee increases were due to climate change, when there is absolutely NO mention of water shortage or climate change in the PCA announcement.
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Old 24-06-2019, 10:00   #84
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

[QUOTE=mat jam;2915709]
Quote:
Originally Posted by redneckrob View Post
You've got a number of folks here who have started and run international companies and spent a good chunk of time not only studying things like the world economy but participating in it. It may be a bit of hubris for you to assert that you and apparently you alone understand "how the world economy works" and those of us who've actually been heavily involved in it don't. Or are we all part of the conspiracy too? The one that only you are clever and smart enough to grasp while the clueless sheeple that make up the rest of the world just won't ever have your capability to see through the lies that lie at the bottom of all corporate books?[/QUOT]

No wrong in your thinking. My post was addressed to specific individuals. I see I have upset people with the assumption in the future.

Let me ask a simple question since you feel you are qualified.

What is the actual unemployment figure in the US?
Let me guess...you are privy to the REAL numbers.
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Old 24-06-2019, 10:03   #85
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
You're right, you should never return stolen property.

Seriously?

There was no canal, and no nation there before the US built it. The land was mostly uninhabited jungle that the US acquired legally from the surrounding people, NOT through military conquest.

Crack a history book.
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Old 24-06-2019, 10:52   #86
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

Ive read extensively about the canal, transitted it several times, and live in Panama.

The USA acquired the Canal zone by military/diplomatic manipulation of less powerful nations. That is well documented historic fact. Verifiable from many sources...including public statements by the two main players who pulled off the scam: Roosevelt and Bunau-Varilla.

The USA wanted the canal for military and transportation reasons which made sense then, but were rendered largely irrelevant by the technological progress and dramatic expansion of transport infrastructure in the USA. We literally went from fighting indians pre-canal to cross the plains to extensive railroads, interstate highway system, and commercial air travel within decades of its completion.

The canal during this same time frame had become poorly run and a financial & political thorn in the USAs side. Presidents long before Carter had considering divesting the Canal. In the 1960s the rising political tensions between Panama & the USA brought about negotiations regarding the Canal...the beggining of the end of the USA era.

If you want to crack a history book then I highly recommend David McCullough's "Path Between The Seas"...a highly regard, and very well written, work which thuroughly documents the history of the Canal from the French era through the USAs turnover.

https://www.amazon.com/Path-Between-.../dp/B002FK3U4Q

Bunau-Varilla's "I Took Panama" makes interesting additional reading specifically about the fleecing of Panama by the guy who orchestrated it.
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Old 24-06-2019, 11:01   #87
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

[QUOTE=mat jam;2915635][QUOTE=GordMay;2915489]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mat jam View Post
You've got to be kidding! An anonymous internet seer, using publicly available - but undisclosed information, is your source?

From deagel.com
“... We assume that the official data, especially economic, released by governments is fake, cooked or distorted in some degree ...”
[/]


You are free to believe what you want.
Have you actually done your homework? Have you traced where they are located? And who they are? I suspect not. Nobody is asking anyone to believe anything. But if you know anything about the economic system and its current situation I suspect your response would be different. I have offered my creds - please tell us yours so we may decide who is better able to judge.
Actually, you havent offered your creds except for some vauge references.

Im open to alternative views as long as they are well founded. What I have initially found about deagel does not help their credibilty. Maybe you can enlighten us as to the basis for their credibility?
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Old 24-06-2019, 11:10   #88
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

[QUOTE=belizesailor;2915830][QUOTE=mat jam;2915635][QUOTE=GordMay;2915489]Actually, you havent offered your creds except for some vauge references.

Im open to alternative views as long as they are well founded. What I have initially found about deagel does not help their credibilty. Maybe you can enlighten us as to the basis for their credibility?[/

If you actually choose to you can find the real unemployment numbers. They are readily available. There is a reason why they no longer publish M numbers related to money. Also the method for adjusting inflation numbers are skewed and altered to match their intended numbers. Everything is ready available if you choose to look in the correct places and understand how they manage the numbers. But since you are not aware and choose to chew the grass just be happy in your knowledge that you know what you think you know. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Let me add. They are located in one of the most secure buildings in the US.
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Old 24-06-2019, 11:21   #89
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

Quote:
Originally Posted by moctrams View Post
I thought the water goes into a holding pond for the net cycle.
The new locks will re-use much of the water (to fill the lock on the next rise), The original locks use massive amounts of water. The sources of water for the Panama canal are showing stress (less water on reserve).

It takes much more water to fill a lock with 1 ship and 10 yachts than with two ships.
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Old 24-06-2019, 11:34   #90
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Re: Proposed cost increase to transit Panama Canal

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Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
Seriously?

There was no canal, and no nation there before the US built it. The land was mostly uninhabited jungle that the US acquired legally from the surrounding people, NOT through military conquest.

Crack a history book.
Seriously, perhaps English is a second language to you but it is apparent that you don't know what the word Nation means when you falsely or ignorantly state "there was no nation there [in Panama / within the isthmus] before the US built it [the canal]." So allow me to educate you with the definition of Nation.

na·tion:
Pronounced, /ˈnāSH(ə)n/

noun

a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

Also note as maybe applicable:

A gringo or gringa is someone considered a foreigner from the perspective of Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries in Latin America. In Spanish and English, gringo usually refers to an English-speaking male foreigner, especially one from the United States.

Well perhaps having the privilege and honor to live within the Flathead Nation, the large reservation of the Confederated Salish, Kootenai and Coeur d'Alene tribes here in northwest Montana has provided me with an enlightened understanding, perspective and respect to the true native population and culture, and to their pre-euro contact history and belief and languages, and to temper what otherwise might be a euro-American / nationalistic / white pride / yankee doodle dandy / gringo or gringa mindset; my ancestry being of German, French and Irish stock. When my Dad retired from the U.S. Air Force back in the mid-1960's he was asked to become a Deputy Secretary of Transportation by the Johnson Administration, he turned that opportunity down; they then asked him if he would take a leadership role in the administration of the Panama Canal Zone, he also turned down that opportunity due to the civil unrest that was occurring over the US administration of the military governed canal zone and because he was generally sympathetic and empathetic to the anti-US imperialism, fundamental self-determination, sovereign desires of the nation's native populace. As a family we were posted all over the world and within the country of the USA, and gained understanding of internationalism. My sister is the eldest of the siblings, she lived in 23 different homes before graduating from high school.

FYI: im·pe·ri·al·ism
/imˈpirēəˌlizəm/

noun
a policy of extending a country's power and influence through diplomacy or military force.

I often have to ask my fellow United Staters, to explain to me yet again: Exactly just what part of America is the United States NOT a part of?

FYI. Maybe one should try to learn by cracking a history book about the pre-euro contact indigenous cultures and fellow peoples of the Americas and not just apply a decidedly atypical Gringo attitude and mis-informed perspective.

Today, Panamanians are primarily Latino Americans whose racial and/or ethnic identity is Mestizo, i.e. a mixed ancestry of white European and Native American from Latin America (usually Iberian-Indigenous mixed ancestry). Not many Panamanians would self identify as being of USA heritage or citizenry, but they are every bit as much American, as we Yanks of the 50 states, being fellow people of the Americas. Panama is home to six indigenous American groups – the Ngöbe-Buglé, Emberá-Wounaan, Naso (Teribe), Guna (Kuna), Bri Bri, and Bokata. According to the 2000 census, these groups had a total population that reached slightly over 285,000, some 5-8% of the total Panamanian population. Despite the creeping influence of modern society, many of these groups continue to hold strongly onto their traditional culture and language.

The Guna (pop. 62,000) live along the eastern Caribbean coast in the San Blas Archipelago. The Guna go by many names. Until only recently they were referred to as the Kuna, but in 2011 their name was officially changed to better reflect their native tongue, which lacks a “K” sound. Somewhat comically, the Guna don’t refer to themselves as Guna – it’s just the name they let huaga (foreigners) call them. Within their own circles, they are known as the Tule (pronounced TOO-lay).

The Guna are a fiercely independent people. They have fought wars with the Spanish and Emberá-Wounaan, and in 1925 won a revolt against the Republic of Panama, earning them the semiautonomous status that they enjoy today. Indeed, outsiders have been trying to steal their home for centuries, so it’s not surprising that the Guna are somewhat wary of outsiders. This is reflected today in their attitude towards tourists, which is somewhat mixed. Many welcome the economic opportunity of tourism, but hold strong to their belief that visitors should pay for the privilege of visiting their comarca (even taking a photo of a Guna will cost you $1). This reticence, however, has helped preserve their culture, and with the right amount of respect and understanding visitors can get a wonderful glimpse into their world.

Most Guna live on the islands in the archipelago, although a sizeable number still live on the mainland in the Darién forest.

Ngöbe-Buglé
The largest indigenous group in Panama is the Ngöbe-Buglé (pop. 188,000). The Ngöbe-Buglé (pronounced NO-bay BOO-glay) is actually comprised of two different, but culturally similar, groups – the Ngöbe and the Buglé. There are some ethno-linguistic differences between the two, but by and large the distinction is small, so they are often referred to in conjunction with one another. Traditionally this group was known as the Guaymí, but the name is used less nowadays.

The Ngöbe-Buglé won the rights to an enormous comarca in 1997, which is formed from parts of the Chiriquí, Veraguas, and Bocas del Toro provinces. Most members of the group live in the mountains in western Panama.

Similar to the Guna, the Ngöbe-Buglé have largely resisted outside influence and has done well to preserve their culture. This is in part because their communities are scattered along huge, undeveloped tracts of land. Also like the Guna, they have maintained political autonomy while also enjoying representation in the Panamanian legislature.

The Ngöbe-Buglé survive on subsistence agriculture. The men use slash-and-burn techniques to produce corn, rice, bananas, plantains and cassava. During the coffee season, many men travel to plantations near Boquete to help with the harvest and bring back income to their families. The women raise the children and make handicrafts. Two of the most common handicrafts are the naguas (a hand-sewn, traditional dress made of appliqué) and the chacara (a bag woven from plant fibers). These crafts can often be found in markets and shops throughout the Chiriquí province.

Emberá-Wounaan
Similar to the Ngöbe-Buglé, the Emberá-Wounaan is comprised of two groups who are culturally similar but speak different languages. Although they are lumped together into one group these days, they were originally different people with different languages; some within the group still prefer to be thought of as separate peoples. They number around 29,000 and live mainly in comarcas along the Caribbean and Pacific slopes of the Darién. Anthropologists believe that the two groups (the Emberá and Wounaan) emigrated from the Chocó region of Colombia thousands of years ago.

The Emberá-Wounaan survive on subsistence agriculture and fishing. Historically they were slash-and-burn farmers and hunters, but these days that practice is restricted due to their residency within a national park. Rice and maize plantations have popped up in the Darién in recent decades, thus allowing members of the group to work as seasonal laborers.

The Emberá-Wounaan have strong political autonomy in Panama, although they are beginning to feel the force from outside influences. Latinos are beginning to settle on their lands, and loggers are destroying much of their rainforest. What’s more, there is pressure to finish the Interamerican Highway all the way to Colombia. Their cultural cohesion will ultimately depend on whether this highway is completed. If it happens, it will be difficult for the small groups living within the forest to avoid assimilation. In the last few decades, some Emberá-Wounaan moved from the Darién to communities along the banks of the Río Chagres, which empties into the Panama Canal near the Gatún Locks.

Naso
The Naso are a small indigenous group that lives in the northeastern reaches of Panama in the Bocas del Toro region. They are spread out in eleven communities along the Río Teribe, and are one of the last indigenous groups in the Americas that have a traditional monarchy.

According to records from the colonial Spanish empire, the Naso were present in mainland Bocas when the explorers arrived in the 16th century. Not surprisingly, conflicts arose, and the Spaniards drove the Naso off their land and into the highlands near the Costa Rican border.

It is estimated that there are only a few thousand Naso remaining in Panama, although some live in southern Costa Rica as well. The Naso have remained isolated and relatively autonomous for decades, but these days their culture is threatened by youth migration, missionary activity, the encroachment of tourism, and a massive hydroelectric project.

Unlike other indigenous groups in Panama, the Naso have not been granted their own comarca. This is serious because two forces are currently threatening their ancestral land – a developing ecotourism scene in Parque Internacional La Amistad (where many Naso live) and the construction of a massive hydroelectric project along the Río Teribe. The Naso are also referred to as the Teribe, or Tjër Di. Tjër is the Naso’s principal god. Her name means Grandmother Water and forms the root of the word Teribe, the name of river that runs through this region.

Bri Bri
The Bri Bri are another indigenous group that live within the Bocas del Toro region of Panama. This group originated in the Talamanca reserve of Costa Rica and some made their way to northern Panama; many Bri Bri, however, still live in Costa Rica. Only a few thousand live in Panama, and they speak both Bri Bri and Spanish. Most live without running water or electricity, and survive on a mix of subsistence agriculture, hunting and fishing. Their relative isolation has allowed them to maintain their cultural identity, but has also resulted in less access to education and health care.

The Bri Bri live in clans that are composed of their extended family. The clans are matrilineal, which means that a child’s clan is determined by which clan his mother belongs to. Women have an important role in Bri Bri society, and are the only ones who can inherit land or prepare cacao, a sacred drink that is used in rituals and ceremonies. As with other indigenous groups in the area, the cacao tree has a special place in Bri Bri culture. It is believed that their god, Sibö̀, turned a woman into the tree, and these days cacao branches are never used for firewood.

Bokata
The final, and smallest, indigenous group in Panama is the Bokata. They number just under a thousand and live in eastern Bocas del Toro and northwest Veraguas. The Bokata maintain their own language and culture, and until the late 1970s, there were virtually no roads through Bokata territory. However, the push of modern society is making it increasingly difficult for the Bokata to retain their cultural traditions and customs. Every year the Bokata become more assimilated with the local Mestizo population.
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