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Old 30-03-2010, 14:35   #31
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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
You are proposing a system of extra-legal summary justice* (expedient vigilantism).
No, I am not.

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The foundation of all civilized systems rest on the RULE OF LAW; but some would have us overturn our established legal system(s), substituting our own personal agendas.
You must understand that our laws have no jurisdiction outside our nations. As these acts occur in International waters, it is the International Law that counts:
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Piracy is of note in international law as it is commonly held to represent the earliest invocation of the concept of universal jurisdiction. The crime of piracy is considered a breach of jus cogens, a conventional peremptory international norm that states must uphold. Those committing thefts on the high seas, inhibiting trade, and endangering maritime communication are considered by sovereign states to be hostis humani generis (enemies of humanity)
In times past, summary execution of pirates captured in battle was legal (British Admiralty for example). When you use the word "expediency", this implies that the person captured is only suspect of piracy, without proof. That is very different from capturing them during their act of piracy. For those it is clear that they are guilty; the problem is that witnesses refuse to testify.

Also, on universal jurisdiction:
Quote:
Universal jurisdiction or universality principle is a principle in international law whereby states claim criminal jurisdiction over persons whose alleged crimes were committed outside the boundaries of the prosecuting state, regardless of nationality, country of residence, or any other relation with the prosecuting country. The state backs its claim on the grounds that the crime committed is considered a crime against all, which any state is authorized to punish, as it is too serious to tolerate jurisdictional arbitrage
Organizations like the UN and Amnesty International support universal jurisdiction.

Let me be clear that I do not support execution of captured pirates without trial. Don't take just my first sentence out of the context of the rest of my post. I support use of deadly force in battle when they try to capture a prize. For those that surrender, I mentioned the prison ship and "piracy tattoo" before letting them go. When pirates are captured the 2nd time, I support the principle of prosecuting and punishing them under rule of law like explained above. It would be very nice of a nation volunteers to handle that. That nation needs it's law and justice system to allow this, like the Constitution of the USA does:
Quote:
U.S. Constitution, Art. I Sec. 8 cl. 10:
The Congress shall have Power ... To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations
cheers,
Nick.
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Old 30-03-2010, 14:49   #32
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Originally Posted by idpnd View Post
No one wants to give any "permit to piracy" or drop "enforcement", but the means employed must be lawful also. Dropping all pretence of legitimacy and murdering people without due process is exactly what happens in fascist states so we want to be careful with that.
It is lawful to act against pirates. Where does the idea come from that piracy is allowed?

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But aren't you threatening to kill them willy-nilly without proper process now?
Nope, see my previous post.

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By the way, I have heard absolutely nothing of any of the hostages being maltreated, particularly in the way you're describing here. I would be grateful for references.
see Skeletal and terrified: British yacht couple reveal cruelty of their Somali pirate captors | Save The Chandlers

I think you all do not fully understand the horror that the hostages go through. Result from growing up and living in a nice and safe environment.

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Old 30-03-2010, 15:21   #33
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It's amazing how many people on this forum refuse to give pirates the right to a fair trial.
Alain
I do not recall that anyone said anything like that. By all means, give them a fair trial. Hear the evidence, and record it scrupulously. Make very sure that the accused are the actual gentlemen who were taking ships by violence. As a former instructor of Constitutional Law, I am VERY much in favor of good process and due regard for the rights of criminal accused. But then, after you've followed the process, throw them in a musty prison and throw away the key. Or if you like, and the laws of the state which has jurisdiction allow it, hang them by the yardarm, shoot them in the backs of their heads, send them to the electric chair, or give them a lethal injection (check all applicable).

It's another matter if pirates attack, and your ship happens to be armed. If you are in reasonable fear of your life, the laws of most states allow you to respond with deadly force. So if a pirate is killed as a result of himself threatening deadly force to an innocent person -- well, the problem is solved with much less complication.
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Old 30-03-2010, 15:29   #34
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St. Augustine tells the story of a pirate captured by Alexander the Great. "How dare you molest the sea?" asked Alexander. "How dare you molest the whole world?" the pirate replied. "Because I do it with a little ship only, I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy, are called an emperor." Augustinus, De Civitate Dei
Very much so. But the problem of those molesting the whole world with big armies is, although a very real problem, also very much outside the scope of this discussion. It is a logical fallacy to argue that, for example, because so and so is a mass murderer, means that an ordinary murderer should not be prosecuted.
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Old 30-03-2010, 15:37   #35
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Originally Posted by idpnd View Post
No one wants to give any "permit to piracy" or drop "enforcement", but the means employed must be lawful also. Dropping all pretence of legitimacy and murdering people without due process is exactly what happens in fascist states so we want to be careful with that.



But aren't you threatening to kill them willy-nilly without proper process now? By the way, I have heard absolutely nothing of any of the hostages being maltreated, particularly in the way you're describing here. I would be grateful for references.
Who suggested killing them "willy-nilly"? If they attack you with weapons, in order to kidnap you and take over your vessel, all for ransom, and you have your own weapons, and you are in reasonable fear of your life, you have the right to fight back, including killing the attackers. This is not "willy-nilly". In that situation, the "process" is rather simple -- you are attacked with deadly force, you experience a reasonable fear of your life, you resist with deadly force. Process followed and problem solved. Assuming, of course, you are better armed and/or a better shot. A swivel-mounted 50 caliber Browning ought to put you in that position.
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Old 30-03-2010, 16:18   #36
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I see no need for fair trials
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HANG Them, Shoot them, Rid the world of them
The gun-ho crowd appears to be turning pacifist. Good.

I carefully looked through the report cited by Nick above, and I STILL could not find any evidence of
Quote:
keep them hostage under horrible circumstances, hardly feeding them, threatening to kill or rape them and regularly beating and torturing them.
Although I do feel for their plight, and it appears their separation is causing them a lot of pain, the conditions don't seem to be anything like the stains on the emperor's coat, such as Guantanamo bay or that dark place in Iraq, where the victims were (are?) indeed being raped, beaten and tortured.

Hence the Augustine quote..
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Old 30-03-2010, 16:31   #37
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On the high seas, I'm all for shooting them as they try to board. Due process is shooting them as they climb up the rope.

I don't think we ought to sink suspected mother ships, but if there is hard evidence they are mother ships, on the high seas, take or sink them, and try to people found aboard.

The rule of law is certainly the way I want my country run, but when the barbarians hide behind my rule of law to harm, bomb, kill, rape me and mine, lock and load.
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Old 30-03-2010, 16:36   #38
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Whilst the US have made a custom of locking people up without trial at army bases, alongside the more traditional execution of minors, mentally disabled people and the occasional innocent party for good measure, those in favour of such "justice" may wish to bear in mind there are other cultures out there

It has been noted that the lawless nature of the local governments have indeed made it possible for the international fishing industry to operate without quotas off those shores. The resulting desperation for food may well be a factor here (as well as the availability of arms and the aforementioned lack of central control).

St. Augustine tells the story of a pirate captured by Alexander the Great. "How dare you molest the sea?" asked Alexander. "How dare you molest the whole world?" the pirate replied. "Because I do it with a little ship only, I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy, are called an emperor." Augustinus, De Civitate Dei
IDPND,

You, sir, should bear in mind the conduct of your countrymen in the Congo, among other places, before issuing self righteous condemnations of others.
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Old 30-03-2010, 16:41   #39
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If assassination by bombs dropped from pilotless drones with the foreknowledge of likely collateral damage is "legal" in Pakistan then I don't see that machine gunning a few Somali Pirates (with the risk of killing a few Fishermen or crew) is not doable. We've clearly got both the principles and the personnel, just not the interest.

Probably find out that the reason for no action (and the RN's connivance with the capture of the Chandlers) is that Somalia is a source of funding for Gordon Brown's Zanu-Labour Party...........
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Old 30-03-2010, 19:19   #40
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Maxingout,
I would like to know the publication that you were reading because the SR was deactivated and removed from the active duty and strategic reserve rolls in 1998 and most given to museums’. NASA had two but only two and they later deactivated 1999.
Warren
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Old 30-03-2010, 19:48   #41
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LOL I wish you lot were sitting on my deck a few weeks ago.

I NEVER think guns are right on a boat. But if I was anywhere near this neck of the woods again (doubtful) I will have the worlds biggest automatic thunderbluss ever invented... and woebetide any m****ker who wants to rape Nicolle or steal my and my families hard earned assets.

Now who was reciting classics? Remove Nics name and put your wife's name in that sentince....

Yay! Its 3.50 am! Off watch in 10 mins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 30-03-2010, 21:13   #42
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Maxingout,
I would like to know the publication that you were reading because the SR was deactivated and removed from the active duty and strategic reserve rolls in 1998 and most given to museums’. NASA had two but only two and they later deactivated 1999.
Warren
You are right. I was reading about the U2 coming out of retirement and being deployed in Afghanistan. The article was about the U2 while my brain was thinking about the SR 71.

I stand corrected.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:36   #43
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US Navy captures pirates

Perhaps the long weeks at sea are getting to some of the pirates. They've got to be mad to take on a war ship.

BBC News - US Navy captures suspected pirates after gunbattle

P.
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:01   #44
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They've got to be mad to take on a war ship.
Direct result of warships within 50' of pirates and not acting at all (UK royal navy). Or may be they were protecting their coast and territorial waters...

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Old 01-04-2010, 12:37   #45
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Direct result of warships within 50' of pirates and not acting at all (UK royal navy) ...
I think it may have been the RoyaL Danish Navy’s HDMS "Absalon" (L16) which first demonstrated civilized adherence to legal principles, in this regard.
Danish navy releases 10 Somali pirates - Lloydslist.com
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