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Old 30-03-2010, 08:23   #16
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The pirates have been released again: BBC News - EU force frees Somali 'pirates'

cheers,
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"Cmdr Harbour told the BBC that the case against the suspects captured on Tuesday was 'clear-cut'.
'We intercepted the pirates, we destroyed their mother-ship and we went on board the cargo ship to get statements,' he said.
'But we had to release them because the master of the ship would not testify.'"

Unbelievable.

"Several organisations, including the International Maritime Bureau (IMB), have expressed concern that the use of armed security contractors could encourage pirates to be more violent when taking a ship."

Duh. The pirates will happily avoid harming anyone, if no one threatens them with harm, but merely pays them millions of dollars every time they point a gun at someone. You can't think of a better incentive to encourage more and more piracy. What a great deal for the pirates. The stupidity of this attitude is breathtaking.

If piracy is not resisted by force, if we can't find the cojones to even prosecute those pirates whom we actually catch red-handed, then of course the problem will never be solved. The master of that ship ought to spend a few months in Somali captivity, for the sake of all the other ships' masters who will do so as a direct result of his own cravenness, laziness, or whatever motivated him to not cooperate with the prosecution. Simply unbelievable.
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Old 30-03-2010, 09:51   #17
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"Cmdr Harbour told the BBC that the case against the suspects captured on Tuesday was 'clear-cut'.
'We intercepted the pirates, we destroyed their mother-ship and we went on board the cargo ship to get statements,' he said.
'But we had to release them because the master of the ship would not testify.'"

Unbelievable.

"Several organisations, including the International Maritime Bureau (IMB), have expressed concern that the use of armed security contractors could encourage pirates to be more violent when taking a ship."

Duh. The pirates will happily avoid harming anyone, if no one threatens them with harm, but merely pays them millions of dollars every time they point a gun at someone. You can't think of a better incentive to encourage more and more piracy. What a great deal for the pirates. The stupidity of this attitude is breathtaking.

If piracy is not resisted by force, if we can't find the cojones to even prosecute those pirates whom we actually catch red-handed, then of course the problem will never be solved. The master of that ship ought to spend a few months in Somali captivity, for the sake of all the other ships' masters who will do so as a direct result of his own cravenness, laziness, or whatever motivated him to not cooperate with the prosecution. Simply unbelievable.
nicely said. HANG Them, Shoot them, Rid the world of them
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Old 30-03-2010, 10:01   #18
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The idea of becoming a pirate is starting to look quite favorable to me...

I could use the money if not entirely legal at least more or less accepted and apparently, relatively risk free method of making it.

Good use for my Sea Ray I guess.
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Old 30-03-2010, 12:06   #19
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It's amazing how many people on this forum refuse to give pirates the right to a fair trial. And I'm not sure if the present laws of the USA give the Navy the right to arrest, trial and hang people on the high seas. Of course, it could be made possible.

FYI, some of the pirates caught by French Navy commandos after the raid on the Ponant in April 2008 are still held in jail in France, awaiting trial. The French Supreme Court decided that it wasn't illegal to retain them onboard a warship for 5 days without seeing a lawyer.

Also remember that in the past centuries, states had to pardon pirates because they couldn't cath them. See for example
The Pirate Wars: Pirates vs. the Legitimate Navies of the World: Amazon.co.uk: Peter Earle: Books

Alain
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Old 30-03-2010, 12:24   #20
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nicely said. HANG Them, Shoot them, Rid the world of them
Whilst the US have made a custom of locking people up without trial at army bases, alongside the more traditional execution of minors, mentally disabled people and the occasional innocent party for good measure, those in favour of such "justice" may wish to bear in mind there are other cultures out there

It has been noted that the lawless nature of the local governments have indeed made it possible for the international fishing industry to operate without quotas off those shores. The resulting desperation for food may well be a factor here (as well as the availability of arms and the aforementioned lack of central control).

St. Augustine tells the story of a pirate captured by Alexander the Great. "How dare you molest the sea?" asked Alexander. "How dare you molest the whole world?" the pirate replied. "Because I do it with a little ship only, I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy, are called an emperor." Augustinus, De Civitate Dei
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Old 30-03-2010, 12:32   #21
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I see no need for fair trials when pirates are caught in the act of piracy in International waters. I would sent a prison ship to the area, throw every captured pirate in the hold on bread and water and sent out ransom demands to their families and pirate friends. If pirates are let go (ransom paid or FIFO when the hold gets too full), give them the pirate tattoo again just like in the old days and explain that getting caught and having the tattoo means the end. This is more justice and fair trial than they will ever get at home.

Pirate suspects are more difficult. There are enough war ships out there to track each suspect boat that leaves the well known pirate nests. Show they are being watched and tracked and intercept them with full unleashed & deadly force before they have the chance to board their prey after which they are not suspects anymore so can be put on the prison ship.
As soon as tracking indicates that they are heading to a ship, land a platoon of marines on that ship using helicopters.

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Old 30-03-2010, 12:49   #22
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I do think it's interesting that many hang pirate flags from their boats, have pirate logo clothing and trinkets, and love the genre of movies that contain the Pirates of the Carribean movies....yet detest actual piracy. I'm not pointing any fingers. I am one of those I describe. I just find it bitterly ironic. If I had been born in Somalia and raised by or in a gang of pirates, I might be one myself. Instead, I'm saving to buy a nice fiberglass yatch so I can mount a couple hundred dollars worth of pirate logo trinkets, flags and beach towels around to tickle my fancy. And fancies are strickly prohibited by pirates for sure!

insert thread drift here. next in line drop thread drift anchor smartly.

hate the sin. love the sinner. myself included.
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Old 30-03-2010, 13:22   #23
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Whilst the US have made a custom of locking people up without trial at army bases, alongside the more traditional execution of minors, mentally disabled people and the occasional innocent party for good measure, those in favour of such "justice" may wish to bear in mind there are other cultures out there

It has been noted that the lawless nature of the local governments have indeed made it possible for the international fishing industry to operate without quotas off those shores. The resulting desperation for food may well be a factor here (as well as the availability of arms and the aforementioned lack of central control).

St. Augustine tells the story of a pirate captured by Alexander the Great. "How dare you molest the sea?" asked Alexander. "How dare you molest the whole world?" the pirate replied. "Because I do it with a little ship only, I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy, are called an emperor." Augustinus, De Civitate Dei
Good point. Not only the unregulated fishing industry of private enterprises, but the dumping of nuclear and other toxic waste in their waters has caused a very desperate situation for an extremely poor country. Add a civil war and no centralized coast guard to protect their waters and you have the perfect recipe for the desperate defense of their waters and shores. We call this piracy. I do not condone their use of violence, but agree that a fair trial is just. And how about prosecution of the private companies who illegally dump(ed) there?
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Old 30-03-2010, 13:30   #24
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I see no need for fair trials when pirates are caught in the act of piracy in International waters...
... Pirate suspects are more difficult ...
You are proposing a system of extra-legal summary justice* (expedient vigilantism).

The foundation of all civilized systems rest on the RULE OF LAW; but some would have us overturn our established legal system(s), substituting our own personal agendas.

It might be argued that the Somali pirates have done just that! Having been wronged, they seek retributive justice, outside normal societal law.

“Expediency” defines the use of methods that are advantageous, rather than moral, fair, or just.

Morality is not just what is useful.

What is moral, is right!
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Old 30-03-2010, 13:55   #25
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Well stated, Gord!
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Old 30-03-2010, 13:58   #26
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I don't see how a civil war and/or lack of protection for their fisheries can be seen as a permit for piracy. I find that completely unacceptable.

If you think that "desperate defense of their waters and shores" is what we call "piracy", you are just... wrong, sorry to say so ;-) They do not protect, they attack innocents by up to 1,000 nautical miles from their shores, shoot at them, kidnap them and keep them hostage under horrible circumstances, hardly feeding them, threatening to kill or rape them and regularly beating and torturing them. They are harsh criminals, the worst of the worst like all pirates have been before them. Allowing them to keep doing this because of their civil war is the path to total anarchy. I wonder how the reaction would be if pirates hunt UK or US waters or just outside the 12nm territorial waters.

Somalia has been treated wrong in the past just like every other African nation. Of course something should be done about that but they do seem to have enough money to buy the weapons and ammunition to counter anyone trying to "help", even attacking UN food transports.

Without enforcement it is of little use to prosecute companies who illegally dumped there. How do you obtain proof of that? These pirates could film or even attack those doing that but they choose not to.

About flying a Jolly Roger ensign: I think it is still legal to attack a yacht flying it and I am sure it is illegal to fly it.

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Old 30-03-2010, 14:05   #27
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No one wants to give any "permit to piracy" or drop "enforcement", but the means employed must be lawful also. Dropping all pretence of legitimacy and murdering people without due process is exactly what happens in fascist states so we want to be careful with that.

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threatening to kill or rape them and regularly beating and torturing them. They are harsh criminals, the worst of the worst like all pirates have been before them.
But aren't you threatening to kill them willy-nilly without proper process now? By the way, I have heard absolutely nothing of any of the hostages being maltreated, particularly in the way you're describing here. I would be grateful for references.
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Old 30-03-2010, 14:12   #28
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I would never condone the acts of violence committed by these pirates (or any other criminals) but I do think a look at the events that spawned such acts is worthwhile. And yes, things have gotten way out of hand it seems, and well beyond defending their waters and shores. But lawlessness should not be met with lawlessness. IMO anyway.
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Old 30-03-2010, 14:29   #29
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Bt lawlessness would not be met with lawlessness,

it would be met with the appropriate level of force as allowed by International Law to provide persons on the high seas the ability to protect their lives and vessels.

Don't defend yourselves if you like... give them your boat, your money, and whatever ransom can be obtained for you if it assuages the guilt you feel for their situation.

I personally do not feel any guilt as I neither personally nor nationally have done anything to harm these people.

If they feel that they have a right to prey on me, then I most certainly have a right, and legal precedent to defend myself.
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Old 30-03-2010, 14:29   #30
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I would never condone the acts of violence committed by these pirates (or any other criminals) but I do think a look at the events that spawned such acts is worthwhile. And yes, things have gotten way out of hand it seems, and well beyond defending their waters and shores. But lawlessness should not be met with lawlessness. IMO anyway.
Looking at the events that spawned these acts is most certainly worthwhile. I'm sure we could do more to end the cycle of brutality in their Countries. Let me ask you this though. You are aboard a ship, currently being followed by a heavily armed group in an RIB. You have arms aboard and the ability to defend yourself. Do you? What would you do? Here's what I would do. I would do all that I could to stop them from having the chance to board my ship without killing them, but if it looks like they could get a leg up or injure my crew, I would put a bullet through one or more of their heads ASAP. This is coming from a guy who doesn't own a gun, let alone guns that would necessitate a rack. From someone who carries spiders outside rather than harm them. You and I both know that they know what they are doing is illegal and wrong. I would NEVER let them aboard if I though I had a valid chance of repelling them. What would you do?
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