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David_Old_Jersey · 27-02-2013, 08:47

.........says US Judge

.

"When you ram ships, hurl glass containers of acid, drag metal-reinforced ropes in the water to damage propellers and rudders, launch smoke bombs and flares with hooks; and point high-powered lasers at other ships, you are, without a doubt, a pirate," he said.

"The activities that Cetacean [the Japanese whalers] alleges Sea Shepherd has engaged in are clear instances of violent acts for private ends, the very embodiment of piracy."

BBC News - US court brands whale activists Sea Shepherd 'pirates'

Mimsy · 27-02-2013, 08:54

Since it is the whalers who are benefiting financially from acts of violence on the sea I think they have this the wrong way round.

Not a fan of Sea Shepherds seamanship (I think they put uninformed volunteers in harms way) but I understand completely their motivation to do so.

capn_billl · 27-02-2013, 09:04

I don't have a horse in this race, except that 1000 Whales a year is excessive. This is a perfect example of "tragedy of the commons". There is no incentive for anyone to comply with whaling/fishing regs, and every incentive to NOT comply.

The person who cheats make the market, and the chumps who follow the rules, end up with no money, and no fish.

It has to be done by country, IE universal treaty to police your own vessels, If they overfish, the offending country pays crushing fines to everyone else, until they control their own people. (may not work with Japanese, they can afford the fines).

Lagoon4us · 27-02-2013, 09:11

I tend to agree with the judges opinion, what i'll never understand is why the Australian Navy sit's in port or at sea doing mindless exercises with the mindless americans instead of enforcing law both ways.

Navy personnel enjoy different tasks, it breaks the monotony, ie rescuing French and English sailors in the Great Southern Ocean. COST is usually put up as an excuse, well hey the Navy is an ongoing cost, the only difference is FUEL and DEPRECIATION....
And the training in 'real life' experience the value immeasurable.

Greenpeace is the worlds conscience but they should not be left to physical action, unless against the French of course where anything is ok.

hellosailor · 27-02-2013, 09:16

David, as a foreigner you may not be aware of the issues and you may have fallen for the BBCs poor reporting on this issue.

Check out www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41455.pdf for a very nice discussion of what and how piracy is defined in the US, by statute.

Now, what you may not be aware of, and what the BBC neglected to mention, is that Judge is just some guy, with unknown credentials that do not necessarily include anything beyond "I've got lots of buddies in politics, they gave me a job" and judges often use their office for political reasons, ignoring or violating the laws.

That judge is also on the Court of Appeals, which is only the 2nd level of our federal court system, and his ruling is subject to appeal and reversal by our Supreme Court. It would not be unusual for his orders to be put on hold for a couple of years while the ruling was being appealed.

Further complicating this is that our federal court system is broken up into "Circuits" or districts, each with a different reputation and the rulings from each ARE NOT BINDING on any other districts. The 9th Circuit Court is considered a rogue, it is based in California where things often are decided quite contrary to the other districts and to national policy.

In other words--some guy in an oddball state decided the Sea Shepherd committed piracy, despite superior, extensive, and traditional federal law saying it is not. Will the judge change the law of nations? Maybe. Wouldn't bet on it. SS seems to have committed trespass and battery, but calling it piracy might actually be a favor to them, because the US penalties for piracy by a US citizen can actually be LESS than for trespass.

Ah, politics. The BBC totally missed the story on that one, they got pwned by a press release!

Dsanduril · 27-02-2013, 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

"When you ram ships, hurl glass containers of acid, drag metal-reinforced ropes in the water to damage propellers and rudders, launch smoke bombs and flares with hooks; and point high-powered lasers at other ships, you are, without a doubt, a pirate,"

One response I saw from Sea Shepherd was "that's Sea Shepherd Australia, a different organization from Sea Shepherd US, so US courts have no jurisdiction." Have to be careful with that, I could see it being very easy to replace the words "a pirate" with "a terrorist" in the judge's sentence. Once declared a terrorist organization the drones can fly at will, and they make no distinction between different "branches".

ty.gregory · 27-02-2013, 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by capn_billl

I don't have a horse in this race, except that 1000 Whales a year is excessive.

I think you DO have a horse in this race. As do your children, and their children, and theirs, and theirs, and...

micah719 · 27-02-2013, 09:41

Sounds like more fun than honest work, anyway.

Dsanduril · 27-02-2013, 09:49

Quote:

In other words--some guy in an oddball state decided the Sea Shepherd committed piracy, despite superior, extensive, and traditional federal law saying it is not. Will the judge change the law of nations? Maybe. Wouldn't bet on it. SS seems to have committed trespass and battery, but calling it piracy might actually be a favor to them, because the US penalties for piracy by a US citizen can actually be LESS than for trespass.

Your own source concludes:

Quote:

Arguably, in light of international treaties addressing the act of piracy adopted by the United States since Smith, Hasan is the stronger of the two decisions.

And Hasan used the UNCLOS definition:

Quote:

The term “piracy” is defined in UNCLOS (Article 101) as:

(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed-

(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;

(c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b)

So, there is already strong precedent in the US legal system that would agree with the court in this case.

captain58sailin · 27-02-2013, 09:56

Brigands to be sure, pirates no, a pirate seeks to take your ship, defile your women and kill your men, not necessarily in that order. Anyone who has been to sea for more than 10 minutes realizes we are not the only sentient beings on this planet. A lot of us whom have spent most of our lives at sea, revere and honor the whales. Commercial whaling has been outlawed for many years, yet whales are still harvested on a commercial basis under the guise of research. If it swims like a duck, and it quacks like a duck and has the same feathers as a duck, then it is a duck. Sea Shepard has stood up for those who cannot complain in our courts. I say good on them. They at least have the guts to take action rather than dithering in courts and splitting hairs over definitions.

twistedtree · 27-02-2013, 10:06

I'm completely opposed to the whaling done by the Japanese. By I also completely disagree with the Sea Shepard's actions and agree it constitutes piracy. Their ship should be seized, sunk, and every one of them thrown in jail.