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Old 27-02-2013, 17:35   #46
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

If you equate krill with whales it is utterly impossible to have an intelligent discussion.

edited to add link: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-us-human.html
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Old 27-02-2013, 17:51   #47
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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Originally Posted by Mimsy View Post
Here is the "acid" that is thrown- Butyric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Do people even read the sources they quote? You use "acid" in quotes as if it is not really acid, and yet your own source says:

Quote:
The substance has also been used by Sea Shepherd Conservation Society as a noxious, nausea-inducing repellent in antiwhaling protests to disrupt Japanese whaling crews,[6] as well as by anti-abortion protesters to disrupt abortion clinics.[7] In 2010, a Sea Shepherd activist was convicted for assaulting a Japanese mariner with a butyric acid projectile that left the mariner with facial burns.[8]

...

The United States Environmental Protection Agency rates and regulates butyric acid as a toxic substance.[17] Personal protective equipment such as rubber or PVC gloves, protective eye goggles, and chemical-resistant clothing and shoes are used to minimize risks when handling butyric acid. Inhalation of butyric acid may result in soreness of throat, coughing, a burning sensation and laboured breathing. Ingestion of the acid may result in abdominal pain, shock, and collapse. Physical exposure to the acid may result in pain, blistering and skin burns, while exposure to the eyes may result in pain, severe deep burns and loss of vision.
So not only does it burn skin just like any other acid, it also induces nausea.
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Old 27-02-2013, 17:51   #48
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

And finally- Japan's appetite for whale meat wanes | Environment | guardian.co.uk

I grew up on a cattle ranch where we were taught where the beef we ate came from. We were also taught to never waste anything because an animal died to feed you and to waste meat was morally offensive.

We are not talking about a native people killing a whale or two and feeding there entire village over the winter when faced with no other resources . We are discussing a very wealthy population who has more than enough money and resources to feed themselves. We are discussing the slaughter of highly intelligent creatures by the hundreds to save face. Hundreds of highly intelligent animals slaughtered and the meat is thrown in the rubbish bin.
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Old 27-02-2013, 17:51   #49
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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Originally Posted by Mimsy View Post
If you equate krill with whales it is utterly impossible to have an intelligent discussion.

edited to add link: Whales boast the brain cells that 'make us human' - life - 27 November 2006 - New Scientist
well if you look into the krill fishery that has started down there its going to be far more damaging in the long run then killing a few whales as its the food source for everything else and without enough of it , alot more than the whales will be at risk. not saying im for killing whales just saying im not for paul watson and the way he operates
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Old 27-02-2013, 17:52   #50
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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I tend to agree with the judges opinion, what i'll never understand is why the Australian Navy sit's in port or at sea doing mindless exercises with the mindless americans instead of enforcing law both ways.

Navy personnel enjoy different tasks, it breaks the monotony, ie rescuing French and English sailors in the Great Southern Ocean. COST is usually put up as an excuse, well hey the Navy is an ongoing cost, the only difference is FUEL and DEPRECIATION....
And the training in 'real life' experience the value immeasurable.

Greenpeace is the worlds conscience but they should not be left to physical action, unless against the French of course where anything is ok.
I agree with your position vis a vis the Sea Sheperds. As for the Aust. Navy not getting involved, I think it has much to do with a reluctance to be involved in international incidents. I expect their level of involvement would be different during an actual emergency.

Greenpeace would love if they were the "world's conscience", the portend to advertise themselves as such. I was involved with them for a time, the money grubbing control freaks at the top of the org turned me off. Several incidents since then have shown I made the right choice. Surely, we all can be better stewards of our resources however Greenpeace does not have a lock on that, they are not the conscience of many.
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Old 27-02-2013, 17:58   #51
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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i wonder is the sea sheperd looking for crew i know a couple of french divers looking for a job, i think they even worked on the rainbow warrior at one point in time
LOL Good one.
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Old 27-02-2013, 18:03   #52
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

Richard do tell more what you were doing with greenpeace and why you got turned off?
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Old 27-02-2013, 18:10   #53
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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Here is the "acid" that is thrown- Butyric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"In 2010, a Sea Shepherd activist was convicted for assaulting a Japanese mariner with a butyric acid projectile that left the mariner with facial burns."

Sea Shepherd man sentenced for whaler assault | Environment | The Guardian

Although from the link cited it is unclear whether he got convicted of the Acid Attack - but nonetheless telling that he denied it as says to me that it wasn't entirely harmless.

Perhaps unfair, but "Acid Attack" brings the mental images of stuff like this:-

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Old 27-02-2013, 18:11   #54
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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I agree, the Japanese whaling fleet should be disbanded and sunk and every one of them thrown in jail.
Especially since the Japanese are often acting against international law.....
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Old 27-02-2013, 18:23   #55
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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I think Sea Shepard is operating under a more aggressive form of civil disobedience and I think they have demonstrated that they (well the rank and file members) are willing to accept the consequences of their actions.
Civil disobedience is fine but only to a point. The SS crew undoubtedly signed a disclaimer absolving the organization of fault. Even if they did not fully understand at the time what they were signing, their actions, whether they have full knowledge or not, are not allowed to abridge my expectation of personal safety and be free from harm. When one party actively pursues a course of action which will necessarily put me (or my property) in harms way I will find no recourse but to counter those actions. If that means bringing a bigger gun...well, there ya go. Greenpeace experienced such escalation in several instances. So far, this matter with SS is largely in the courts.

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There is too much out of sight, out of mind attitude towards the ocean and it will sooner or later catch up with us. As a sailor and diver I have seen the deterioration of the reefs and oceans in FL and the Bahamas just in my lifetime. Many reefs are bare of all but small, inedible fish. Reefs that I dove in the seventies are completely dead. Fish stocks are being wiped out. Only in the last few years since grouper were protected do I again see large Goliath grouper on the reefs and wrecks in FL.

I think it would be very, very sad if I could not see whales and dolphins when crossing the oceans. If the whaling nations won't stop then I'm all for turning up the heat on them
Sad indeed. I have revisited reefs in various locations only to find there are not what they were once. Until I know better I will continue to blame the gallons of sun tan oil from the myriad of tourists all looking for their place in the sun. The tourist industry is largely unchecked as for environmental impact. Sure, a high rise hotel is subject to building plans, but what of the tons of fertilizer for the lush lawns, the diversion of natural riparian, or the copious signs of disaster at the beach side, all unmitigated.
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Old 27-02-2013, 18:39   #56
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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Just to remind everyone...I seem to remember the USA was founded on the basis of terrorism...open revolt against the established rule of law.
Never seems to get discussed here in USA. Funny that.
If the Brits had captured George Washington, he'd have been hanged as a terrorist.
Sounds like when enough folks feel strongly about something...it stops being terrorism and morphs into freedom., fighting injustice, blah blah...
Or is it only if you actually win the fight ?
All power to the protesters who are standing up for what they believe.
One man's pirate/terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
When we're at it...let's stop the dolphin killings in Japan.
Nope. The USA was founded on the principal (basis) of individual freedom such a freedom of speech, of peaceable assembly, of land ownership, of religion, et al. Due to the "established rule of law" being decidedly contrary to those aforementioned items, the response was to divorce themselves from such law...the monarchy which held the power of taxation of the colonists yet would not afford the same a voice. The tyrant King George brought it down on himself when he attempted to force the colonies--without a representative voice--to pay for the war against the French.
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Old 27-02-2013, 18:44   #57
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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Nope. The USA was founded on the principal (basis) of individual freedom such a freedom of speech, of peaceable assembly, of land ownership, of religion, et al.
Just as Brogan007 said...
Quote:
All power to the protesters who are standing up for what they believe.
One man's pirate/terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
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Old 27-02-2013, 18:49   #58
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
Civil disobedience is fine but only to a point. The SS crew undoubtedly signed a disclaimer absolving the organization of fault. Even if they did not fully understand at the time what they were signing, their actions, whether they have full knowledge or not, are not allowed to abridge my expectation of personal safety and be free from harm. When one party actively pursues a course of action which will necessarily put me (or my property) in harms way I will find no recourse but to counter those actions. If that means bringing a bigger gun...well, there ya go. Greenpeace experienced such escalation in several instances. So far, this matter with SS is largely in the courts.
Civil disobedience is a complex and tricky course of action and one should be quite certain of his or her moral high ground if that is the choice. When Gandhi lead India in civil disobedience against British rule the British were quite certain that this put them and their property IE control of India, in harms way and they certainly brought bigger guns to bear. In hindsight who was right in that instance? At the time the British were convinced they were and massacred hundreds of unarmed Indians to prove the point.


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Sad indeed. I have revisited reefs in various locations only to find there are not what they were once. Until I know better I will continue to blame the gallons of sun tan oil from the myriad of tourists all looking for their place in the sun. The tourist industry is largely unchecked as for environmental impact. Sure, a high rise hotel is subject to building plans, but what of the tons of fertilizer for the lush lawns, the diversion of natural riparian, or the copious signs of disaster at the beach side, all unmitigated.
Not so sure about the sun tan oil bit. I know a reef in the far south Bahamas that I used to dive that is now totally dead. The place is miles from any settlement, development or tourist area. With the trade winds and Gulf Stream both coming from the east the only source of lotion to pollute that reef would be the beaches of eastern Europe.
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Old 27-02-2013, 18:52   #59
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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It actually looks more like the whalers are trying to kill the Sea Shepard folks, jamming them in between two ships like that.
Presuming you are speaking of the two pics in the OP, what I see are they out of chronological sequence. That is, the 2nd picture occurred first, where SS rammed the port quarter of the red painted vessel. The pic may have been taken from the bridge of the larger vessel which is shown in the other pic. Then, the 1st pic, which is depicts a moment after that previous pic, shows the two whaling vessels coming together but with the SS between. Perhaps the hunter was preparing to transfer a whale to the factory ship. Perhaps they had to cut away that whale due to the presence of the SS on their port side. In any case, it is difficult to ascertain from only two pics.

BTW: from where was the pic of the 3 ships taken? The SS helicopter? another whaling vessel? There is way more than meet the eye.
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Old 27-02-2013, 19:01   #60
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Re: Pirates operating in Southern Ocean........

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Richard do tell more what you were doing with greenpeace and why you got turned off?
I was helmsman for one of the inflatables and basically an ordinary seaman on the ship. The chef made me his asst which also started a battle between him and the chief who preferred me in his engine room. Both of them were ex-MM/USN which earned my immense respect for them. The chief taught me to splice wire.

I got turned off because every so often the panty waists from the top level admin would make a ship visit and so upset the crew with their insanely stupid demands...they acted like petulant brats. Such events often had the consequence of severely shaking the crew which resulted in turnover of skilled officers. For some reason I keep thinking of Capt Queeg but at least he was a commissioned officer as opposed to born into a trust fund.

During one such visit I got fired on the spot. We came into port to replenish. Then we were told to wait for an additional 3 days which turned into over one week for the "tennis pro", aka, higher up in the org, to visit the ship. Then unbeknownst to anyone on the ship, this guy shows up with an entourage demanding to be fed immediately. Oh, by the way, the local news stations (plural) are coming for an impromptu onboard press conference.

My role was to take an inflatable out yonder from the dock with that guy aboard hanging on like Slim Pickens riding a nuke as we sped across the water directly towards the TV camera set up on the dock. As I turned to begin the exhilarating, fantastic, stupendous race towards the dock, the outboard conked out. Mr. I'm Important! threw a fit. It turned out we had run over some monofiliment which wrapped the prop. It took me a few minutes to find the cause but by then the damage was done, the TV crew stopped filming. My firing on such specuous grounds so upset several of the ship's officers that they threatened to resign.

That was just one of several such incidents caused by top level mgmt. There were some others which involved ship's crew needlessly being put in danger.
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