Oyster Problems?

[neilpride]

Even without problems to speak off, look for instance to Beneteau that seems to be finishing with its First line, that was on the origins of the brand, just because it does not bring them the expected revenue.

Probably due to the bad reputation, that is know unsubstantiated

Yes Paolo, probably CR do a lot of damage to the First line, maybe you think that the culprit is this forum after all, he he , pick boatyard data about the First
and comeback with the results....

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

Says the guy who has never built a boat. I work with iso every day, and the majority of the boats I grind into are also built in iso, with an iso gelcoat as well. Has been pretty standard with all builders except the cheap euro builders for some decades now. Bene and several other builders of that stripe still use production ortho-I can tell, usually just by looking at it, always by the smell when I grind it. No lab testing required. They can't fool me!

You can stop with that type of argumentation. It is not needed to build a boat to know about boat design and the materials that are used on contemporary boats. I am surprised you don't know most boats use ortho resins and (some) only iso near the gelcoat for better water abortion protection. Only very expensive boats are built entirely with iso resins.

Maybe you just smell the outer layer when you grid a boat and don't notice that below it is all the same, I mean ortho.

Regarding building a boat, even if that does not matter, yes I have built one, many years ago and redesigned, modified and re-built (with some help) another one, but as I am saying that is completely irrelevant to know or to understand how modern boats are built today and how they work structurally. For that it helps to know a bit about design and structural design.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by minaret

Stupid-or disingenuous?

A former member of this community, doing mischief.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Even without problems to speak off, look for instance to Beneteau that seems to be finishing with its First line, that was on the origins of the brand, just because it does not bring them the expected revenue.

Probably due to the bad reputation, that is know unsubstantiated

Yes Paolo, probably CR do a lot of damage to the First line, maybe you think that the culprit is this forum after all, he he , pick boatyard data about the First
and comeback with the results....

Someone has to say to you that you cannot do that, it is not only not right as it is dishonest. You quote two parts of something that I had said, don't indicate that the sentences are referring two different subjects.

Those two sentences regards regards two completely difference subjects and putting them together gives to the quote a completely different meaning. As I said that is dishonest and not allowed. This is what I said and the subject to what refereed the unsubstantiated bad reputation was not the First line but the Bavaria 42 Match:

Originally Posted by Polux

Probably due to the bad reputation, that is now unsubstantiated, the Match 42 is one of the best buys one can make if that is the type of boat one wants.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Someone has to say to you that you cannot do that, it is not only not right as it is dishonest. You quote two parts of something that I had said, don't indicate that the sentences are referring two different subjects.

Those two sentences regards regards two completely difference subjects and putting them together gives to the quote a completely different meaning. As I said that is dishonest and not allowed. This is what I said and the subject to what refereed the unsubstantiated bad reputation was not the First line but the Bavaria 42 Match:

Expected reveneu, thats all what i want to know... Now you can say if the reputation of the First line, bad or good is unfounded or not...

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Welcome on board!!!!! Great looking boat... Amel .

Thanks for the welcome Neil , yes she is, she's safe and comfortable too.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

5/16"?? That's what, about 7mm? Where in the hull? I wouldn't have thought they could be that thin.

Oceanis 37, hull thickness measured three inches aft of the stem and just above the waterline, at the chain locker scuppers.

Had to thru bolt the bow plate on, since the hull is too thin to fasten to in any other way. Of course, the full hull liner made access to the interior of the bow of the boat impossible. Yes, that's right; the bow of the boat at the waterline is completely inaccessible from the interior. If you hit something in this boat, a fothering sail is your only hope. Full three feet of interior forward of the bulkhead, which is just inserted in slots like the rest of them. Had to cut a big hole and install a Py-Hi.

Bow plate installed because last time the boat hit the dock barely moving it did massive damage, had to grind all the way through to repair. Also it has a plumb stem and the anchor roller only sticks out three inches, so it's impossible to pick the hook without hammering the bow. People can try to pretend this is a sufficient laminate schedule for this boat, but it most certainly is not!

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

You can stop with that type of argumentation. It is not needed to build a boat to know about boat design and the materials that are used on contemporary boats. I am surprised you don't know most boats use ortho resins and (some) only iso near the gelcoat for better water abortion protection. Only very expensive boats are built entirely with iso resins.

Maybe you just smell the outer layer when you grid a boat and don't notice that below it is all the same, I mean ortho.

Regarding building a boat, even if that does not matter, yes I have built one, many years ago and redesigned, modified and re-built (with some help) another one, but as I am saying that is completely irrelevant to know or to understand how modern boats are built today and how they work structurally. For that it helps to know a bit about design and structural design.

No, as I said, I work on boats all the time which are built entirely in iso, vinylester, or even epoxy. I have worked large production floors in a number of places, doing tooling and R&D as well. And yes, actually building a boat does teach you stuff about boat building. Almost as much as repairing the countless broken boats which have been brought to me over the years.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by neilpride

No i dont think so, you have lots of chopped mat boats and then other builders minimize the use of chopped mat as much as posible, skin coats mostly.... What i see in the Bavaria yard tour video is lots of matt FG , i guess they use Bi E glass in the Layup , but my guess is not much ...

And there is no excuses for HR with the delamination isue, they screwed that particular boat, one thing is for sure in my mind, sooner or later those mass production market boats are going to take 1 or 2 steps back in the construction methods in favor of their reputation, Oyster is going to think about , or they are dead in a short future, there is no excuses in any way for a keel fall off, delamination, broken rudders posts, structural failures of any kind,,,,etc...

I'll have to see if I can get some pics of the back side of Bavaria parts too. As far as I can tell, on the new Bav, most glass parts which aren't part of the hull, like the binnacle, cockpit table, etc, are made of pure chop matt with no real glass in it at all. Some core matt, no woven glass. Very thin and flimsy too, already had to repair lots of little things like hinges failing because the screws pull right out of the glass.

[Sandero]

This thread is drifting but interesting. My take away is that the commercial building of yacht hulls is more voodoo engineering then real! Do these engineers, naval architects and yacht builders make it up as they go? Sadly it seems so and this is very troubling... and could lead to loss of life and that could result in criminal and civil actions which could or maybe should sink a company.

Who do you believe? The claims and pretty pictures? What is the training and experience of the marine surveyors who represented the owner's interest ensuring the build quality of some of these expensive one off yachts?

Obviously Oyster had no idea that what they built and sold was not seaworthy. THAT is troubling... as much as their failure to immediately accept responsibility based on the captain's statements. A keel falling off is not acceptable and is a major build/design failure.

Obviously there are many well engineered and built yachts out there. But this thread has revealed too many that aren't. What are these companies thinking?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Polux

I have built one, many years ago and redesigned, modified and re-built (with some help) another one

Photos ? I'm always interested in how others build boats.

[Sandero]

Originally Posted by minaret

No, as I said, I work on boats all the time which are built entirely in iso, vinylester, or even epoxy. I have worked large production floors in a number of places, doing tooling and R&D as well. And yes, actually building a boat does teach you stuff about boat building. Almost as much as repairing the countless broken boats which have been brought to me over the years.

Boat building is not supposed to teach the builder how to build. Building for a commercial market purpose is not meant as a learning lab and testing facility. THAT is supposed to take place in "school"...

Of course we are and should be always learning. I don't oppose new technology. I do oppose its use when not properly tested in advance of use for commercial building.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Sandero

Obviously there are many well engineered and built yachts out there. But this thread has revealed too many that aren't. What are these companies thinking?

I am one of first to jump on builders however we must remember that first and foremost they are a "business" who must make a profit and they are driven by the market. Chopped mat and chopper gun glass are the fastest and cheapest way to build a boat and the less you use, the more money you save and that goes right to the bottom line. Boats like most commodities are engineered to the minimum standards in order to be able to sell them...... sometimes they cross the line.

I know a top line builder who will build you a 30' boat for $400k ... he doesn't get many takers.

[Sandero]

Approaching and crossing the line is flirting with disaster in the name of profit. That is not acceptable. Find a way to make money building a seaworthy safe boat or get out of the business.

I don't know much about Oyster... but after reading and seeing what happened to this boat... they need to be reorganized or may be close their doors. Their "stupidity" may have lost them their profit and their company...

I am not in the market for a boat, but after seeing what they did with this boat.. I would never buy from them... would you? How can you trust these people?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Sandero

Boat building is not supposed to teach the builder how to build. Building for a commercial market purpose is not meant as a learning lab and testing facility. THAT is supposed to take place in "school"...

Of course we are and should be always learning. I don't oppose new technology. I do oppose its use when not properly tested in advance of use for commercial building.

Sure! I'm one of the only boat builders (and by that I mean people who actually get their hands dirty) I know who has an actual degree in boat building. Everyone else I went to school with ended up in design, or in a totally unrelated field. Even my wife!