Oyster Problems?

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

You missed the statement on their website that their laminate is mostly chopped mat with woven Aramid reinforcement forward only. Not something I'd be bragging about.

Most likely Kevlar ,, but that don't make the bow area stiff, Kevlar have good abrasion and impact properties, only good framing make the bow area stiff or a real thick laminate , but read that....

The outer layer of the laminate structure is a conjunction of isophtalic acid resin and powder-bond chopped strand mats. This procedure ensures an effective water sealing as well as protection against osmosis.
In addition to conventional glass mats, there is a so-called multiaxial roving fabric used in the lamination. In order to minimise collision damages, for example by flotsam, endangered areas in the bow are protected by aramid fabric with high impact strength. Aramid fabric is the material which is used for making bullet proof vests.

Thats it, chopped mat and Poly resin for Osmosis protection, something invented in the prehistory... for the newbie maybe sound good enough...

Above the waterline and in the deck a sandwich laminated with PVC-foam core is used. The foam stability and the right material features are confirmed by independent certification agencies. The foam core is light weight but at the same time provides insulation and reinforcement of hull and deck. Sandwich constructions are an approved technology used in aviation industries and for ice-breaking ships. The sandwich layer is made of water repellent, closed porous foam which ameliorates the stiffness of the hull. Sandwich constructions have a very low heat conductivity which prevents condensation and makes the onboard climate more pleasant..

Aviation industries? again for the newbie...

Obviously they are made by hand , with regular Poly resin, with lots of chopped mat everywhere , nothing new in the Horizon...

[neilpride]

And then some can wonder how something like that can happen in a Bavaria sailing in normal conditions, no collision or grounding involved...

[Exile]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I have posted a copy of the damage survey of the Bavaria Match 42 that lost it's keel. You might find it interesting.

Interesting & also disturbing. I take it this was a lightweight model purpose built for racing? The survey makes no mention of previous groundings, but also doesn't rule them out. The conclusion that it was a mfg. defect (with the proviso that Bavaria had failed to provide tech docs.), along with evidence of cracks on other boats of the same model, doesn't sound confidence inspiring.

[neilpride]

They rebuilt the whole Macht 42 line after the incident,, I don't know if they are still building the match 42, I guess its a old boat ....

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Exile

Interesting & also disturbing. I take it this was a lightweight model purpose built for racing? The survey makes no mention of previous groundings, but also doesn't rule them out. The conclusion that it was a mfg. defect (with the proviso that Bavaria had failed to provide tech docs.), along with evidence of cracks on other boats of the same model, doesn't sound confidence inspiring.

I won't be home til' the weekend but I also have a number of photos of a Dufour 42 that I surveyed that suffered a separation of hull and liner with no evidence of collision. If this is still a hot topic I'll post some of those photos on the weekend. I am not a fan of liner boats but that's irrelevant to the market.

[neilpride]

Poker if you don't want to post it in this topic can I ask by Pm to see those pics....
If you want. Thank you.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Poker if you don't want to post it in this topic can I ask by Pm to see those pics....
If you want. Thank you.

I have no problem posting the photos (wouldn't be the first time I've been threatened by lawyers ). I just won't be back at my desktop computer (where they reside) til' late Saturday.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by neilpride

And then some can wonder how something like that can happen in a Bavaria sailing in normal conditions, no collision or grounding involved...

WTF . . . happened to this boat?

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Exile

WTF . . . happened to this boat?

Rigging pressure pull the tie rod chainplate debonding the whole liner ...

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Exile

WTF . . . happened to this boat?

Do an online search, lots of info on this incident. There was no evidence of any previous collision and similar damage to the keel root was found on all the other M42's.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Rigging pressure pull the tie rod chainplate debonding the whole liner ...

The chopped mat didn't help

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I have no problem posting the photos (wouldn't be the first time I've been threatened by lawyers ). I just won't be back at my desktop computer (where they reside) til' late Saturday.

Yeah thank you, I always found any evidence instructive for future buyers , owners etc...

[Exile]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Do an online search, lots of info on this incident. There was no evidence of any previous collision and similar damage to the keel root was found on all the other M42's.

OK, I'll check it out. Any big, systemic build problems with Bavaria since? Can't imagine the "fix" to all the other M42's was easy or cheap, or still under factory warranty for that matter.

Looks like a similar deal for the other Oyster 825 owners. Not only uncertainty over the factory "fix," but resale value.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

So, in the Bava pic we have the clasic Plastic Fantastic crap, the infamous glued grid liner, with , wait , no beams or partitions in the bow area? and from the picture what is that? a white plastic tank glased to the hull? no framing in the aft of the hull sections?

Definitely the same building practiques , materials and strength that in a Swan, like the 60 footer pictures, full carbon, even the deck...

It seems to you that photo you posted gives a wrong impression of the keel and shrouds structure:



The structure is completed with bulkheads that are not yet in place.

I don't understand why you keep distortioning and what I say:

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes, Bavarias built like Swans and Oysters with a hull that is cored above waterline solid skin below. I don't know if Swans and Oysters use like Bavaria Kevlar reinforcements at the bow but I guess they use at least carbon reinforcements.
Meaning they have the same type of hull. Regarding being built with the same quality, between Oyster and Bavaria one wonders about that

Regarding quality we are looking to Oysters and particularly to one that have failed miserably. I don't see why we should not think that other recent Oysters were built in a similar way.

Regarding the way Bavarias are built, I would say pretty well and they increased recently the solidity of their boats, making them heavier, a bit the contrary of most other brands.

And regarding the "infamous glued grid liner" that is what you call to the kell structure, swan and Oyster also use them, as almost all modern built boats and you could at least read before you post. It is not glued:

"In each Bavaria Yacht, floor timbers and stringers are glassed in. Partially, e. g. in the keel area, the laminate is twice as thick as official specifications require."
http://www.bavaria-mallorca.com/hull-and-deck.html

"The new Cruiser range has larger framing, glassed into the hull with generous glass tabbing. Bulkheads are similarly tabbed into the frames and deck-head making for a very stiff and strong yacht. The increased internal framing combined with the Cruiser range’s larger beams, topsides, keels and mast sections obviously generate extra displacement. Any detriment to performance that one might expect from the extra weight, has been offset by Farr optimising hull and appendage hydrodynamics and the moderate displacement increase affords superb sea-keeping qualities when offshore." http://www.bavariayachts.com/bavaria....B781RbyJ.dpuf

Regarding the keel structure, what you call grid liner, what we are discussing regarding the Oyster is precisely a badly designed or dimensioned one that failed and cause the keel to come apart.

[Van Der Beek]

I don't know if we are to be concerned about he lack of consistency in build quality during the manufacturing process or if we are to be more concerned about poor engineering. It shouldn't matter whether the boat has hit anything or not - the keel should never fall off on a general purpose build boat. Performance boats being fragile is one thing, they are often experimental and all that.

I would expect from from an English boat builder, England is a sailing nation and always has been. This is kind of embarrassing for them.

I'm glad I bought an Amel instead of any of these posers / marina condos / beach toys. Best boat purchase I ever made.


Ninja edit.
1st post by the way, hello: seems to be a great forum.