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Old 23-02-2016, 08:46   #1006
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Hulls are Hand Lay up anyway,, no robotic there,,, cant imagine a mix of Poly in those robotic arms...
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Old 23-02-2016, 08:55   #1007
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Post number 1000 wow.
Almost all cars handle 400000?? seriously? wait a moment yes they can handle 400000, but after 2 clucht replacement, maybe 2 turbos in the way, 3 or 4 timing belts to, etc.. etc.. saying that , cars today are like low Q production boats, unless you want to pay more for a better brand , diesel cars this days are busted by brands, TDI, HDI, DCI etc... all a piece of crap in terms reliability... they take a reliable atmospheric engine, they fit a hig boost turbo, more Hp, they stick a complex direct common rail electronic injection system,
still using timing belts this days , and they last shorter..... my wife is going down the third Turbo breakage in W Golf tdi despite she warm the engine in cold and wait before stop the engine ... Lameeeeee.....
So? whats your point? Less expensive cars as less expensive boats need more maintenance if we consider the same type. It is pretty clear to me and I have said that many times. They will probably last a lot less time, like the cars.

However that means very little for the brands that make them or even for the buyers. A new boat is sold by the first owner in average 4 to 7 years after it is bought and at that time they will be in no need of much maintenance and the demand of used mass production boats with that age is big. So, who cares?

I believe the problem relies on those that are going to buy those boats with over or near 15 years of age.

In what regards seaworthiness and safety it would make sense to have mandatory inspections for boats after a given age. Many 15 year old cars are totaled due to hidden defects you cannot see looking at them but there are revealed on the inspections, mostly chassis problems due to "groundings", I mean accidents. Those defects are more expensive to repair than the value of the car.

With sailboats it happen the same, except that they continue sailing and some even crossing oceans.

Note that the business of a mass producer boat builder is making boats in larger number, as cheap as possible for all to have money to buy them, with the quality and sailing/cruising efficiency that keeps the costumers satisfied (otherwise they will not buy more from that brand) but they just don't care to what happens to old boats with small commercial value.

That will only interest those that buy them and those are not the same that buy new boats neither the 2th buyers of those boats.

You have here a trade-off that seems to work well for all that count win what regards sales and production: The manufacturer makes a well designed product cheaper with an acceptable quality but with a life expectancy duration (without lots of maintenance) shorter, keeping the buyers satisfied (that will not be affected by that) and a good resale value regarding the first resale, that is also an important factor for the 1st buyer.

This happens not only with boats but with all kind of objects, namely with cars. Just look at how a car from the 60's was made, regarding durability and how they are made now, starting by the weight and ending up on the cheap plastics with limited duration that all modern cars are full of.

The only thing that work better are engines, due to a superior technology.
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Old 23-02-2016, 09:12   #1008
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by jmaja View Post
....
There have been quite many issues with HR, Najad etc. and now Oyester. Are they really better built structurally? They are not making huge profits, so they are expensive to built. Where does that extra cost come from? Lack of automatisation is one thing, but there isn't much automatisation regarding lamination and structures. Actually HR is one of the very few still using spray lay-up. Automatisation comes in installations and making parts for the interior. So these must be the main reason for the added cost. Also making long series helps to mimimise the cost of design and molding, which are a big cost portion of boats made only a few in series.

I wouldn't say that all or even most luxury cruisers are better built structurally than production boats. For C/R boats it may be a different story. They are usually clearly lighter than the production boats. Thus they need to be better built even for the same strength.
Yes I agree that Cruiser racer or a performance boat have to be better built and normally they are and that is what makes them more expensive than the same levelly main market boats.

Regarding much more expensive luxury boats, costing 2 or 3 times more I still think the the vast majority is better built, using more expensive techniques (like infusion) and better resins and also with a better quality control...except when a small brand like Halberg-Rassy becomes a medium sized brand and that was the case with Oyster too, in a lesser scale. Then that transition occurs many times with problems.

It happened wit Halberg Rassy (it seems they had overcame that) and it seems to be happening with Oyster now. If they succeed with the transition, than it is good for everybody since they will be able to offer a less expensive boat with the same quality.
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Old 23-02-2016, 09:15   #1009
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
So? whats your point? Less expensive cars as less expensive boats need more maintenance if we consider the same type. It is pretty clear to me and I have said that many times. They will probably last a lot less time, like the cars.

However that means very little for the brands that make them or even for the buyers. A new boat is sold by the first owner in average 4 to 7 years after it is bought and at that time they will be in no need of much maintenance and the demand of used mass production boats with that age is big. So, who cares?

I believe the problem relies on those that are going to buy those boats with over or near 15 years of age.

In what regards seaworthiness and safety it would make sense to have mandatory inspections for boats after a given age. Many 15 year old cars are totaled due to hidden defects you cannot see looking at them but there are revealed on the inspections, mostly chassis problems due to "groundings", I mean accidents. Those defects are more expensive to repair than the value of the car.

With sailboats it happen the same, except that they continue sailing and some even crossing oceans.

Note that the business of a mass producer boat builder is making boats in larger number, as cheap as possible for all to have money to buy them, with the quality and sailing/cruising efficiency that keeps the costumers satisfied (otherwise they will not buy more from that brand) but they just don't care to what happens to old boats with small commercial value.

That will only interest those that buy them and those are not the same that buy new boats neither the 2th buyers of those boats.

You have here a trade-off that seems to work well for all that count win what regards sales and production: The manufacturer makes a well designed product cheaper with an acceptable quality but with a life expectancy duration (without lots of maintenance) shorter, keeping the buyers satisfied (that will not be affected by that) and a good resale value regarding the first resale, that is also an important factor for the 1st buyer.

This happens not only with boats but with all kind of objects, namely with cars. Just look at how a car from the 60's was made, regarding durability and how they are made now, starting by the weight and ending up on the cheap plastics with limited duration that all modern cars are full of.

The only thing that work better are engines, due to a superior technology.
My point is not about if is expensive or not, do you consider a Audi A3 a expensive car? lets say that my point is, in some countries they screw some brands in favor of postservice and in some instances they drop the final quality of the product... some brands, some not.... take for instance this example, all cars have problems sooner or later , some countries have a attitude of perfection or at least they try to make things really good, reliable and long lasting, and I'm talking about those Asian countries like Japan .. my first car was a Honda Civic, never ever a engine problem ,, then you have those EU brands like VAG , Audi,etc.. where the word Reliable its something else... I'm still paying a Lawyer to see if I can get a warranty solution or a brand answer about my Renault , Crankshaft rod pop out with low mileage and dealer inspections.. see, with boats happen exactly the same in some instances....
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Old 23-02-2016, 09:16   #1010
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Speaking about old cars that continue to run, what's going to happen in Cuba? Those boys think cars can last 65 years or more, they have a surprise coming.
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Old 23-02-2016, 09:20   #1011
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Still waiting for Polux to post pictures of "robotics" in use in boat building. Have been waiting for about two years now. Robots don't like sticky resin! There are no robotics in use in this industry. And no, using a 5 axis CNC to route plugs for molds is not boat building by robotics. That is done by everyone in the industry.
It is very odd you don't know about the use of robotics on mass production boat building.

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Old 23-02-2016, 10:02   #1012
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Re: Oyster Problems?

They use some robotic for cutting but hulls are still Hand Layup..
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Old 23-02-2016, 10:58   #1013
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
They use some robotic for cutting but hulls are still Hand Layup..
I did only said that the use of robotics on the marine yacht industry brings the price down on mass production boats. The hull is not the most expensive part on a yacht building process and I was replying to Minaret that said that robotics were not used in the boat building industry.

They are and they diminish costs even if only mass production builders can have them due to the huge initial investment and the number of boats that have to be made to make them profitable.
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Old 23-02-2016, 13:45   #1014
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Another Bavaria video:
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Old 24-02-2016, 11:53   #1015
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Re: Oyster Problems?

I particularly liked the self tapping screws for the hull/deck join. That was impressive....
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Old 24-02-2016, 12:26   #1016
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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I particularly liked the self tapping screws for the hull/deck join. That was impressive....
There are more tightly screws in a drywall
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Old 24-02-2016, 12:37   #1017
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Re: Oyster Problems?

They will tell you the self tapping screws are only there to tighten up the joint so the adhesive can get a proper grip.
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Old 24-02-2016, 14:04   #1018
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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They will tell you the self tapping screws are only there to tighten up the joint so the adhesive can get a proper grip.
Glue makes the day? Glued decks and grid/liners, and god knows what else. What can possibly go wrong
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Old 24-02-2016, 14:07   #1019
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Yes because for Bavaria through bolt the deck joint is a waste of time and money....
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Old 24-02-2016, 14:30   #1020
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Re: Oyster Problems?

I see the Indians are circling
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