Oyster Problems?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Keep in mind that those big corporations like Groupe Beneteau, Jeaneau etc... are killing those smaller boat builders who offer something better built , they cant compete
in those terms , people don't want to wait to much for a new boat, they don't care in many instances about how the boat is built, they want a affordable boat for the money , and builders see that, they cut corners because is the only way to be alive in that predator market , and you know what? we are the guilty .. I hope very much some brands see the light and try to improve those productions costs in favor of quality and price, others are just playing a dangerous game...


That's probably what happen with Oyster and others , they are bought by big sharks and profit is the golden rule ..

I am not sure if that is happening with Oyster or just a transition with problems from traditional building to high tech building.

Regarding what I have said on my previous post, while I will clearly prefer a Dehler or a Salona to Beneteaus or Jeanneaus, that is not what most sailors would prefer and those and other inexpensive brands do provide the product most sailors want and need at the right price.

Most around this thread would prefer voyage boats, or call them Water boats">blue water boats if you want, even if I believe they are not really the same thing, and there are many such boats on the market for the ones that need them, far better than old ones.

With what is not possible, as many here seem to believe, is that it is possible to have a voyage boat just a bit more expensively than a mass production main market boat and that is just a mirage. They would cost 2 or 3 times more to build and they will not fell the needs of most sailors, starting by the price.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

I am not sure if that is happening with Oyster or just a transition with problems from traditional building to high tech building.

Regarding what I have said on my previous post, while I will clearly prefer a Dehler or a Salona to Beneteaus or Jeanneaus, that is not what most sailors would prefer and those and other inexpensive brands do provide the product most sailors want and need at the right price.

Most around this thread would prefer voyage boats, or call them blue water boats if you want, even if I believe they are not really the same thing, and there are many such boats on the market for the ones that need them, far better than old ones.

With what is not possible, as many here seem to believe, is that it is possible to have a voyage boat just a bit more expensively than a mass production main market boat and that is just a mirage. They would cost 2 or 3 times more to build and they will not fell the needs of most sailors, starting by the price.

Thoughtful post, I think most would agree, there is much more to a good voyaging boat than installing hand holds on a new entry level production boat.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

I am afraid you have misunderstood me again. What do you call cutting corners? I said that for having the boats priced as low as they can they cut in anything they can. They make the boats most people want at the price they want. As I said repeatedly they are not designed for voyaging, mostly for coastal cruising (that is what most do) and occasionally an Ocean crossing on the right season.

If most cruisers were not satisfied with what they offer you would not have many Bavaria, Beneteau, Jeanneau or Hanse clients, clients that are normally faithful to a brand. Just go to their forums and you will find mostly satisfied clients.

I believe that the problem here on this threads and on this particular forum is that you have liveaboards that live on the sailboats, voyage extensively that talk about mass production main market boats taking as measure the boats that they will see fit for them. And you have even a bigger number of sailors that don't sail a lot but that for some reason they find that they need the same type of boats of the ones that voyage extensively.

Believe it or not the Surveyor that works on the Shipyard I have the boat considers that I sail a lot and that my small 3000nm a year are much more than the average he knows do for a year and he knows a lot of them. And in fact regarding my experience, even regarding most that live aboard, I do sail and cruise much more than the average owner of sailboat and I certainly don't need or want the type of boat the ones that voyage extensively want or need.

The reason why mass production main market boats are like they are and cost what they cost is because that are the type of sailboats most cruisers (cruisers are the ones that use cruising boats for cruising) need at the cost they are willing to pay. They are the right boats at the right price for most, otherwise they would not be the ones that sell more.

Many think that they sell more because they are cheaper, but look at cars: it is not the cheaper cars that sell more but the ones that provide the service people desire from them. with boats it is similar. Most owner of sailboats don't sail much, don't use their boats much, many avoid uncomfortable weather and very few want or cross oceans, much less voyaging extensively.

Mass production main market cruising boats are just the right boats for most, at the right price and they can do and stand much more than the "normal" cruiser will ever do. As I had posted extensively about on another thread many have even circumnavigated and voyaged extensively, a thing that they were not designed for neither best suited to (but that does not mean that many have not done so).

So what you mean by cutting corners? I believe they are clearly designed to be built at a cost but they do provide the needs of the vast majority of clients that have them, including being inexpensive. Is this cutting corners? regarding what and regarding whom?

Actually I agree with most of what you have to say. As I mentioned in my post, the "odd" time they have failures and I consider that cutting corners. When a company like Beneteau needs to make new steel parts to replace faulty bulkheads in their 40/43 models I think that qualifies. Yes I do agree that averaging 3000 miles a year is way above what an average sailor would sail, actually that might equal what many sailors would do in 10 years.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Two in how many samples? 'Huge percentage' - so what percentage exactly?

If the spot is troublesome in the same build, there is clearly a design or / and building issue ;-(

Hope Oyster will not be the case. Would be a shame to scuttle them all. If say the laminate is too dry, there is no way to post-saturate it (I guess)?

b.

If it is 2 in 10,000 it's a huge percentage given the total loss of the craft. There can't be 10,000 Bene 50's plying the high seas.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Polux

I am not sure if that is happening with Oyster or just a transition with problems from traditional building to high tech building.



Regarding what I have said on my previous post, while I will clearly prefer a Dehler or a Salona to Beneteaus or Jeanneaus, that is not what most sailors would prefer and those and other inexpensive brands do provide the product most sailors want and need at the right price.



Most around this thread would prefer voyage boats, or call them blue water boats if you want, even if I believe they are not really the same thing, and there are many such boats on the market for the ones that need them, far better than old ones.



With what is not possible, as many here seem to believe, is that it is possible to have a voyage boat just a bit more expensively than a mass production main market boat and that is just a mirage. They would cost 2 or 3 times more to build and they will not fell the needs of most sailors, starting by the price.

Now there is wisdom in this post. If only the brochures for these craft said the same thing in plain language. You can't get something for nothing.

[K_V_B]

I've now had a chance the read the article in Yacht. Most of what they write has already been said here, that indeed it was a construction error.
One interesting bit: They actually mention this thread!

Laienhafte Ferndiagnosen und wildeste Spekulationen kursieren fortan im Netz. Auf dem englishsprachigem "Cruisers Forum" nähert sich die Zahl der Einträge unter dem Post "Oyster Problems" bald der Tausendermarke - die meiste sind von erschreckende Ahnunglosigkeit geprägt.

Translation:

Amateurish remote diagnoses, and wild speculations now circulate the net. On the English language "Cruisers Forum" the number of posts under "Oyster Problems" is set to reach over a thousand soon - most of them display a frightening level of cluelessness.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I've now had a chance the read the article in Yacht. Most of what they write has already been said here, that indeed it was a construction error.
One interesting bit: They actually mention this thread!



Translation:

Quote:
Amateurish remote diagnoses, and wild speculations now circulate the net. On the English language "Cruisers Forum" the number of posts under "Oyster Problems" is set to reach over a thousand soon - most of them display a frightening level of cluelessness.


The last quote ,, hahaha, make my day Is not only here in CF, SA, lA TABERNA DEL PUERTO...Spanish forum, Wave Train, Yacht World,, etc etc... 99% of the posters agree before the report that the keel stub and hull structure laminate its in the substandar Mickey Mouse frame..
Deal with that Mr CEO...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Common now, your just making Moody's look good! Great boats actually and great builders, just lousy marketers.

Yes but you should not forget they sunk as any other boat that it is not well maintained. On the last ARC and ARC+ with several hundreds of boats and many new or almost new cheap main production boats that only one that went down was a Moody, an already old one, a full keel boat.

It was owned by a family that lived aboard and they had prepared the boat for a circumnavigation that would start with the ARC, They obviously had forget about something. Never managed to find form where the water was coming in.

They were experienced sailors and this was their 2th circumnavigation.

http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/e...ng-69312coming in. The boat did not hit anything

[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

---
One interesting bit: They actually mention this thread!
Translation:
Amateurish remote diagnoses, ..."Cruisers Forum" the number of posts under "Oyster Problems"...most of them display a frightening level of cluelessness.

It could be worse: they don't say all display a frightening level of clueless and as you say some few were right on the spot.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by K_V_B:
---
One interesting bit: They actually mention this thread!
Translation:
Amateurish remote diagnoses, ..."Cruisers Forum" the number of posts under "Oyster Problems"...most of them display a frightening level of cluelessness.

Originally Posted by Polux

It could be worse: they don't say all display a frightening level of clueless and as you say some few were right on the spot.

OR, what Oyster really means is that "most" CF posters have been very critical, while a small few have tried to mitigate/soften/excuse. Coincidence? Just in case the vast majority of opinions here actually have some validity and are not "clueless," I think I'll also stick with pre-2009 models should I ever be in the market for an Oyster. Then again, maybe all the criticism can be simply disregarded as some weird form of "reverse-snobbery?"

[Exile]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Now there is wisdom in this post. If only the brochures for these craft said the same thing in plain language. You can't get something for nothing.

Exactly. Polux finally nailed it. It has little to do with brand-bashing, and everything to do with truth-in-advertising.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

.... Yes I do agree that averaging 3000 miles a year is way above what an average sailor would sail, actually that might equal what many sailors would do in 10 years.

My experience looking at boats on the med (while a buyer) tells me that it is quite easy to find 6 year old cruising boats with 600 hours on the engine and that almost all have less than a 900 hours so making the counts it is not hard considering that most sailors there use the engine to sail or motorsail for 2/3 of the time.

It will give about 800nm a year on the first case and on the 2th 1200 nm a year. And there are many more 6 year old cruising boats close to the 600 hours than close to 900 not mentioned that you can find some that don't even have 600 hours on the engine.

I don't say this with any other meaning than as a probable reality. That is what most people sail on their boats and that don't mean that they don't use the boats a lot, at anchor or at different marinas. I know lots of people that stay at anchor at the same nice spot for 15 days or more, others that rent a berth in some nice marina for a month or so to have a base to have nice sailing base to explore the grounds. That does not mean that they do not enjoy sailing and don't want a boat that sails well.

Regarding cruising there is no right or wrong each do what they likes to do and uses the boats the way they like but for the ones that use the boat like this and they are the majority, a voyage boat would not only be a huge waste of money as it would no be a so pleasurable boat to enjoy easy living.

The majority is what you would call the main market so main market cruising boats are designed and built to fit and respond to these needs and the fact is that those boats can do a lot more than most of these cruisers will ever ask of them.

[barnakiel]

"...Amateurish remote diagnoses, ..."Cruisers Forum" the number of posts under "Oyster Problems"...most of them display a frightening level of cluelessness...."

Off course. Only the Pope knows what GOD is all about. Unfortunately for this Pope, I am not religious.

Boat manufacturers and / or sailing magazines to teach the world on what is amateurish and clueless. Buhahahahaha!!!!! ROFL

Holders of the light and bearers of the torch, living off advertisements and catering for stockholders value. A frightening level of hypocrisy.

I may be amateurish and clueless but at least my boat STILL HAS A KEEL - 35 years from her birth and well over 40k miles down the road.

Hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

barnakiel

[Exile]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

In my opinion the internet is full of "noise". One problem gets discussed over and over and over until people start thinking it is 100s of problems, but it was only 1. And the problem is pretty much always on a boat that has had known history or is on it's 4th owner and no one really knows its history.

Meanwhile there are 10,000's of these boats running around just kind. Yet for some internet reason they are all just falling apart and sinking.

I feel it comes down to 2 things:
1- people who have some old boat and for some reason need to justify the reason
2- people with expensive nice boats that need to justify the reason

Whichever apply, it doesn't make some other boats bad! And it is snobbery that for whatever reason people continue useless boat bashing.

You may be forgetting that criticism/concern/alarm about major structural failures that can and do result in sinkings -- whether on a Bene or an Oyster -- also do not make the majority of those boats, and certainly not an entire brand, "bad." If done responsibly and backed up with evidence, it's also not boat bashing. Not that the latter doesn't occur on internet forums, but it's generally not hard to tell the difference and so easy to ignore.

Besides, if it wasn't for all these insecure sailboat snobs who apparently need to justify their needlessly expensive purchases at the expensive of cheaper boats, just think how boring things would be!

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Polux

My experience looking at boats on the med (while a buyer) tells me that it is quite easy to find 6 year old cruising boats with 600 hours on the engine and that almost all have less than a 900 hours so making the counts it is not hard considering that most sailors there use the engine to sail or motorsail for 2/3 of the time.

It will give about 800nm a year on the first case and on the 2th 1200 nm a year. And there are many more 6 year old cruising boats close to the 600 hours than close to 900 not mentioned that you can find some that don't even have 600 hours on the engine.

I don't say this with any other meaning than as a probable reality. That is what most people sail on their boats and that don't mean that they don't use the boats a lot, at anchor or at different marinas. I know lots of people that stay at anchor at the same nice spot for 15 days or more, others that rent a berth in some nice marina for a month or so to have a base to have nice sailing base to explore the grounds. That does not mean that they do not enjoy sailing and don't want a boat that sails well.

Regarding cruising there is no right or wrong each do what they likes to do and uses the boats the way they like but for the ones that use the boat like this and they are the majority, a voyage boat would not only be a huge waste of money as it would no be a so pleasurable boat to enjoy easy living.

The majority is what you would call the main market so main market cruising boats are designed and built to fit and respond to these needs and the fact is that those boats can do a lot more than most of these cruisers will ever ask of them.

This is likely all correct, and you are making (in my opinion) valid distinctions between "main market cruising boats" and "voyaging boats." But how does a buyer who actually wishes to go "voyaging" (as opposed to what most do) discern the difference? If relying on the mfg. brochures which the EU stds. validate, then why spend, as you estimate, 2-3 times as much?

It seems as though you are contradicting yourself. On the one hand the main market cruising boats are equally capable for extended voyaging (in fact more capable than most cruisers), but on the other hand they are not built as well as voyaging boats. Besides tankage issues, which parts of voyaging boats are "better built" that may justify their add'l cost?