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Old 19-12-2015, 08:37   #766
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Today I'll see if I can't find time to post some pics of various Bavaria parts from the back side. You will see they are built of matt only.
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Old 19-12-2015, 09:56   #767
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
What is a mass production boat? seriously? How many hulls in what time frame?
If the question is addressed to me, I would answer like this:

We use the term "production boat" to refer to inexpensive large-scale production boats like Ben/Jen/Bav Hunter, etc.

This term is misleading, because "production" really means anything built according built in series using any kind of production methods, and that applies to 99% of all boats.

That's why I say "mass production", in place of just "production". "Mass" is of course relative -- it's not like the production of Toyotas at all.

But in my book -- boats which are produced in fairly large series, according to efficiency-oriented production methods, as "mass produced boats". That's Ben/Jen/Bav/Hunter etc.

Boats built in smaller series, with significant customization of each example, using more costly and less efficient production methods, are just "production boats", in my book. That's Swan, Oyster, etc.

HR is a weird case with some elements of both.
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Old 19-12-2015, 10:00   #768
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I believe cored hulls are stronger but the difference in what regards different types of building (to Beneteau and Jeanneau) is probably not so big in what regards weight for strength. Beneteau and Jeanneau use an integral "contre moule" bonded to the hull that increase hull stiffness, they are not a simple single skin hull.

Regarding production boats Bavaria uses cored hulls above waterline, Hanse uses full cored hulls (only the smaller boats use a solid laminate hull) as well as Dehler, Elan uses full cored hulls and Salona uses cored hulls with some zones in single skin.

I wish to all a very nice Christmas. A bit early but I will receive this year my family in my house (about 20) and I will have to interrupt my participation here since there is lot's of things I have to do for properly receive them. So Merry Christmas to all
Merry Christmas, Polux, and to the rest of you folks as well! :santa:
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Old 19-12-2015, 10:13   #769
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
If the question is addressed to me, I would answer like this:

We use the term "production boat" to refer to inexpensive large-scale production boats like Ben/Jen/Bav Hunter, etc.

This term is misleading, because "production" really means anything built according built in series using any kind of production methods, and that applies to 99% of all boats.

That's why I say "mass production", in place of just "production". "Mass" is of course relative -- it's not like the production of Toyotas at all.

But in my book -- boats which are produced in fairly large series, according to efficiency-oriented production methods, as "mass produced boats". That's Ben/Jen/Bav/Hunter etc.

Boats built in smaller series, with significant customization of each example, using more costly and less efficient production methods, are just "production boats", in my book. That's Swan, Oyster, etc.

HR is a weird case with some elements of both.
What is Hinkley or Tom Morris Yachts for example? Almost any "manufacturing" will seek to exploit jigs, templates, forms/molds and assembly line and economies of scale practices.

Most GRP hulls it seems are made from a mold... so the intention is to make multiple copies.
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Old 19-12-2015, 10:14   #770
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
What is Hinkley or Tom Morris Yachts for example? Almost any "manufacturing" will seek to exploit jigs, templates, forms/molds and assembly line and economies of scale practices.

Most GRP hulls it seems are made from a mold... so the intention is to make multiple copies.
My point exactly. All boats are "production" boats.
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Old 19-12-2015, 10:16   #771
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I believe cored hulls are stronger but the difference in what regards different types of building (to Beneteau and Jeanneau) is probably not so big in what regards weight for strength. Beneteau and Jeanneau use an integral "contre moule" bonded to the hull that increase hull stiffness, they are not a simple single skin hull.

Regarding production boats Bavaria uses cored hulls above waterline, Hanse uses full cored hulls (only the smaller boats use a solid laminate hull) as well as Dehler, Elan uses full cored hulls and Salona uses cored hulls with some zones in single skin.

I wish to all a very nice Christmas. A bit early but I will receive this year my family in my house (about 20) and I will have to interrupt my participation here since there is lot's of things I have to do for properly receive them. So Merry Christmas to all
Merry Christmas to Paolo, I wish you the best for the incoming year...
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Old 19-12-2015, 10:29   #772
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Merry Christmas, Polux, and to the rest of you folks as well! :santa:
Thanks Dockhead, Polux & Neil, and Happy Holidays to all.

I've also appreciated this generally more balanced & educational discussion/debate, relatively speaking that is. I've always been quite content with my own choice of boat a number of years ago now, but if nothing else these discussions confirm how relieved I am not to be in the market for a new boat these days. Production, mass-production, semi-custom, custom, whatever. I think I'll just give up those couple of knots of speed & hang onto my traditional boat that meets a lot of criteria quite well, along with being seaworthy, seakindly & comfortable. Can't seem to keep enough cans of varnish onboard though!
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Old 19-12-2015, 11:29   #773
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
If the question is addressed to me, I would answer like this:

We use the term "production boat" to refer to inexpensive large-scale production boats like Ben/Jen/Bav Hunter, etc.

This term is misleading, because "production" really means anything built according built in series using any kind of production methods, and that applies to 99% of all boats.

That's why I say "mass production", in place of just "production". "Mass" is of course relative -- it's not like the production of Toyotas at all.

But in my book -- boats which are produced in fairly large series, according to efficiency-oriented production methods, as "mass produced boats". That's Ben/Jen/Bav/Hunter etc.

Boats built in smaller series, with significant customization of each example, using more costly and less efficient production methods, are just "production boats", in my book. That's Swan, Oyster, etc.

HR is a weird case with some elements of both.
Yes. And +1!

Those of us who want to drag on endlessly about production vs. mass production vs. whatever are best served looking up 'goods' in Wiki. This is a good starting point to get the idea:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._goods.svg.png

and production methods, here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_production

Clearly, boats (as discussed here) seem mass produced luxury goods, with all the entailed economical, social and otherwise consequences. Bavaria and Oyster are the same thing. Some are built for, and sold to, consumers who believe they are rich; and some are built for, and sold to, consumers who believe they are richer.

Some boats (e.g. a Seago inflatable) are not luxury but they are still mass produced boats. Some other boats (e.g. a Hoek) are no longer mass produced, still luxury, goods.

Proper yachts are either boutique or job production. Hence their quality and price. Same applies to out and out racers. Neither sort is being discussed in this thread.

It is sure an ego building exercise to think my mass produced boat is better than the other mass produced boat because my boat is more expensive than yours. But here again a quick lookup with Wiki will tell us of all the involved cognitive biases and fallacies.

Reading is a dangerous passtime ;-)

Big hug to all mass produced skippers,
b.
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Old 19-12-2015, 11:43   #774
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Polux, et. al.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy New Year and may 2016 bring warmth and fair winds whenever and wherever you are on the sea.
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Old 19-12-2015, 18:12   #775
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Damn thing is fragile like an eggshell. It even has fractures from the anchor hitting the bow when it's coming up.
That's bad, It doesn't inspire much confidence does it.

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I wish to all a very nice Christmas
Likewise, Merry Christmas.
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Old 19-12-2015, 19:25   #776
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That's just crazy. That would surely shatter on impact even at 0.5 knots.

.....
Well, here's one that impacted at around 6 knots... and this is a somewhat older Bennie, perhaps less radical in thinness... I dunno about that, but it sure looked thin to this amateur observer!

Jim
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Old 19-12-2015, 20:04   #777
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Plenty thick. It's ready for ramming speed! I tried to sell them on some Mad Max spikes at the waterline, too, but it just wasn't their style.
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Old 19-12-2015, 23:49   #778
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Merry Christmas for all posters!
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Old 20-12-2015, 12:07   #779
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Well, here's one that impacted at around 6 knots... and this is a somewhat older Bennie, perhaps less radical in thinness... I dunno about that, but it sure looked thin to this amateur observer!

Jim
Yea, some say it's to save mfg. costs, i.e. cheap construction. While others point out that it weighs that much less & improves performance (i.e. speed). Not sure what to think, except that it wouldn't be one of those trade-offs I'd personally be willing to make, and certainly not for a cruising boat.

The only part that is somewhat bothersome is how many new buyers are aware? I don't mean to suggest such buyers are mostly novice, oblivious, or not well informed. Most of us were pretty surprised, after all, when first seeing Bene's come in to the yard with such "nose jobs."
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Old 20-12-2015, 12:16   #780
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Re: Oyster Problems?

If I spent the time to go through my files I could show you hundreds of photos that would make any reasonable person wary about buying a boat. How about the new 45 catamaran found to be only 3mm (not a mis-print) thick around the saildrive.

Some of you wonder about the cynicism of those of us in the business. I can assure you it is well earned.
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