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Old 18-12-2015, 17:25   #721
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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It's true that the yacht building industry is intensely unprofitable. You have to dig deep into the weeds to figure out why this is so. But the bottom line is there are too many builders for too few knowledgeable buyers who demand and are willing to pay for a quality cruising yacht. In the past the "reputable" builders, by and large, looked out for the relatively few unwitting customers by only building high quality safe yachts. Even then we can find several examples where that did not happen. Today the number of unwitting customers outweigh the ones who know what they should buy.

As wealth expanded globally a lot of yacht building companies sprang up or expanded rapidly touting "new design methods" or "space age materials". Due to their lack of history they had to offer their product at a price below the competition. New manufacturing methods such as "lean" were sold to the established builders as the 21st century way to defend their diminishing profit margins. As someone else said it is either do or die. Well people have died (thankfully not on Polina Star III) and will continue to die until something changes.

The yachting industry is not the only one where problems like this have happened. The recent fiasco with Takata air bag inflators is a case study in how "lean" only works if the right input data is used. They found a "much less expensive" material to burn that creates the gas that inflates the bags. Unfortunately the long term stability of the material did not factor as much importance as the lower cost. The material absorbed moisture over time and the explosive effect greatly increased to the point that the metal bits around it were blown apart with lethal effect. In a horribly ironic twist, drivers were killed or maimed by a device that was mandated to help save them in an accident.

One way we can all help the yachting industry get its collective head screwed on straight is to clearly articulate the requirements that are "deal breakers" for cruising yachts. Keels that must be inspected and professionally repaired after a grounding is my "deal breaker". I steadfastly hold to the view that the keel should never fall off. If there is a collision so severe that the entire boat breaks apart then I would expect the keel to sink holding tenaciously onto its attachment and a majority of the remaining hull. I never want to see photos like those of PS III or CR ever again...ever.
Excellent post.
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Old 18-12-2015, 17:35   #722
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Polux said awhile back that it was more like only 25%, i.e. less than what may be commonly thought. Not sure myself.

I think even that number sounds too high...
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Old 18-12-2015, 17:50   #723
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Most production boats are purchased by charter companies. That sounds wrong.
The actual statement from Svanen was;

"Fair enough, in theory. However, most current production boats are purchased by charter companies or relative novices. As long as the number sold to knowledgeable sailors is pretty insignificant, the latter's preferences and requirements will continue to count for little."

Makes more sense when you see the whole sentence.
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Old 18-12-2015, 17:56   #724
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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The actual statement from Svanen was;

"Fair enough, in theory. However, most current production boats are purchased by charter companies or relative novices. As long as the number sold to knowledgeable sailors is pretty insignificant, the latter's preferences and requirements will continue to count for little."

Makes more sense when you see the whole sentence.
Yes, it does. Thanks for that.
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Old 18-12-2015, 18:40   #725
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Yes, it does. Thanks for that.
Not really.. I still think this is nonsense...

What is a "relative" novice? Of course few are naval architects or even engineers... so this sort of makes almost all yacht buyers novices... kinda.

But the fact is that there are few people who would buy a new sailing boat with out some decent amount of experience, probably with a survey by someone who presumably knows...

The image I have is some guy showing up at a yacht brokerage with his credit card and wearing flip flops... the novice. That's not what I see on the "docks". In fact MOST sailors are hands on and quite knowledgeable.

But sure... there is a level of trust the the scantlings and build are done conservatively for a commerical cruising boat.
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Old 18-12-2015, 19:27   #726
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Not really.. I still think this is nonsense...

What is a "relative" novice? Of course few are naval architects or even engineers... so this sort of makes almost all yacht buyers novices... kinda.

But the fact is that there are few people who would buy a new sailing boat with out some decent amount of experience, probably with a survey by someone who presumably knows...

The image I have is some guy showing up at a yacht brokerage with his credit card and wearing flip flops... the novice. That's not what I see on the "docks". In fact MOST sailors are hands on and quite knowledgeable.

But sure... there is a level of trust the the scantlings and build are done conservatively for a commerical cruising boat.
Just thought Svanen's comment made more sense the second time to the extent it did not seem to say that most production boats were sold only to charter cos. Not sure who the majority of private buyers are. I've certainly read about & personally met many experienced sailors who own production boats of all stripes.
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Old 18-12-2015, 19:28   #727
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Re: Oyster Problems?

If you don't want your keel to fall off under ANY circumstance, get a boat with an encapsulated keel.

Shannon's and Calibers (to name two) cast lead blocks that tightly fit the solid fiberglass keel cavity and then filled it with resin.

Unfortunately this is more expensive to build and a little slower upwind than a skinny fin keel held onto a 6" wide stub by a handful of M8 stainless bolts.


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Old 18-12-2015, 19:36   #728
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Re: Oyster Problems?

It's possible to bolt on a high aspect keel and have it not fall off. Even the bolts on PS III keel were probably not why the keel stub failed. The lateral and longitudinal forces generated by the keel have to be transferred to the stays and shrouds. How that transfer of force happens is the key. Some designs try to use the hull for that and some use internal strength members. However it's done has to be designed and executed properly. Bolt on keels are not better or worse than encapsulated. If PS III had an encapsulated keel most Ikely it still would have failed the same way.
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Old 18-12-2015, 20:07   #729
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Re: Oyster Problems?

I'll post a few pics of the aforementioned Bene scantlings, just for giggles.


Bow plate just installed:
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Old 18-12-2015, 20:09   #730
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Area in question:
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Old 18-12-2015, 20:11   #731
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Close up with finger for scale.
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Old 18-12-2015, 20:13   #732
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Pocket tape:
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Old 18-12-2015, 20:15   #733
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Re: Oyster Problems?

I did a nice custom bow plate though!
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Old 18-12-2015, 20:40   #734
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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I did a nice custom bow plate though!
Nice indeed! and now the owner will be banging away on it with a great muddy chunk of steel... I hope you sold him a bottle of Brasso to keep it shiny!!

Jim

PS: How thick is the s/s on the plate? I made one that was too thin and it quickly got dented in.
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Old 18-12-2015, 20:54   #735
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Bolted keels are clearly a design defect. They fail even a simple engineering analysis in terms of durability and survivability.
I disagree with that, as would many.

Any type of keel attachment - bolted or encapsulated - can be engineered and built either well or badly as in the case of the Oyster. There are many boats with bolted on keels that have survived for decades without any issues.
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