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Old 16-12-2015, 16:32   #601
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Re: Oyster Problems?

I'm rubbing my eyes with those plastic tanks glassed to the hull,, i mean its just me or someone notice the same?
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Old 16-12-2015, 16:37   #602
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
I don't know if we are to be concerned about he lack of consistency in build quality during the manufacturing process or if we are to be more concerned about poor engineering. It shouldn't matter whether the boat has hit anything or not - the keel should never fall off on a general purpose build boat. Performance boats being fragile is one thing, they are often experimental and all that.

I would expect from from an English boat builder, England is a sailing nation and always has been. This is kind of embarrassing for them.

I'm glad I bought an Amel instead of any of these posers / marina condos / beach toys. Best boat purchase I ever made.


Ninja edit.
1st post by the way, hello: seems to be a great forum.
Welcome on board!!!!! Great looking boat... Amel .
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Old 16-12-2015, 16:45   #603
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
For what it is worth, your statement was cross-posted on another forum to Bob Perry, the guy who designed the Valiants.
Well that's unfortunate as it was clearly a typical case of taking a comment out of context, since I never suggested that most rigs would survive, and I did suggest exactly the opposite, so Perry was given a wholly wrong impression of my suggestion. The fact that Mark Slats' did survive six rollovers was down to its' being a lower aspect steel ketch with wooden masts, as I also noted. However if you look at my reply to Capt Erict on this very point (post 482 on this thread) you will see I say:

"... Sure a 360 will likely bring down a rig. Will it sink a boat? Depends on the boat. …"

I would like to know on which forum/thread I was quoted out of context so I can correct the misapprehension, please!
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Old 16-12-2015, 17:08   #604
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
...
The outer layer of the laminate structure is a conjunction of isophtalic acid resin and powder-bond chopped strand mats. This procedure ensures an effective water sealing as well as protection against osmosis.
.


Thats it, chopped mat and Poly resin for Osmosis protection, something invented in the prehistory... for the newbie maybe sound good enough...
...
That is a good example of you mixing things up. A Isophtalic acid resin is not a "normal" poly resin (an orthophtalic one). The Iso has very good properties in what regards water sealing ( itis used on water bottles). This resin is much more expensive and has also better mechanical qualities allowing a longer elongation of a composite before it fails.

Obviously it is much more expensive. Funny the guys of Bavaria advertising the quality of the materials they use....without most not understanding a word of what they are talking about

And again I am talking out of the subject of this thread that is about badly built Oysters. I will try to be on topic and I will only post about that....or I try.
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Old 16-12-2015, 17:21   #605
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Well that's unfortunate as it was clearly a typical case of taking a comment out of context, since I never suggested that most rigs would survive, and I did suggest exactly the opposite, so Perry was given a wholly wrong impression of my suggestion. The fact that Mark Slats' did survive six rollovers was down to its' being a lower aspect steel ketch with wooden masts, as I also noted. However if you look at my reply to Capt Erict on this very point (post 482 on this thread) you will see I say:

"... Sure a 360 will likely bring down a rig. Will it sink a boat? Depends on the boat. …"

I would like to know on which forum/thread I was quoted out of context so I can correct the misapprehension, please!
Post #4617: Production Boats and the Limits - Page 462 - SailNet Community

Your exact quote that was used was actually prefaced with "Even if a vessel is likely to be dismasted in a roll, . . . ." So I don't think the rig's survival was ever your point, but rather some boats having a better chance of survival by the way they are made. I don't think it was Bob's error so much as Smackdaddy highlighting your quote in a rather misleading way. I tried to clarify later on as you'll see, for whatever that was worth.
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Old 16-12-2015, 17:34   #606
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Leaky keel on an H&P 55? Prove it.

You suggesting I judge boats by their price? So tell me, oh oracle, wherein you walked the boatyard when you made your judgement on the 55s, what was it you judged them down on, apart from the fictional leaky keel? Oh, and which boatyard? When and where? And what do you mean by "… and then something went wrong."? It doesn't even really appear to make sense. The last of these boats was built 19 years ago…
C'mon! I did not mean any disrespect to you, nor to your boat!

I did not say 55; what I did say is that older, H&P Oysters are not guilt-free and that I have seen leaky keels on H&P Oysters.

If you like, you can walk into any boatyard where boats get regularly hauled our before Atlantic crossings and look. Then will you form some kind of broad and non-judgmental opinions on which boats develop what kind of problems. They are just opinions, mine, yours or whatever.

Neither am I suggesting YOU are judging boats by their price. I say many people do, and this applies not just to boats but as well to many other goods like cars, jewellery, houses, i.a.

Please try taking things less personally. When in doubt, you can ask a poster to expand on their views, opinions and any other posted content.

So take some steam off the boiler ;-) and come visit me here so that I can show you a leaky H&P Oyster keel RIGHT NOW.

BTW while googling around, I spotted some interesting images of that unfortunate stolen Oyster that went on the beach. Look at her keel - does it not look like it got somewhat wobbly in the process? I have seen boats that ended atop a coral reef then got dragged back into the water - they had no ballast/stub issues at all. Hmmmmmm. Sure, too few samples to tell, BUT a bad aftertaste lingers. Apparently there is more than one way to build this part of the boat. Agreed?

Big hug, I have nothing against any particular boat. I love them all. Even that unfortunate one. She looked so happy at the dock.

Regards,
b.
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Old 16-12-2015, 17:48   #607
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
They rebuilt the whole Macht 42 line after the incident,, I don't know if they are still building the match 42, I guess its a old boat ....
The Match 42 belonged to a new series of performance boats made from Bavaria. 3 models made, a 35, a 38 and a 42. The boats were designed by Doug Peterson in conjunction with the habitual Bavaria designer J&J.

From the three models only the 42 had keel problems. The problem was basically a problem of over optimistic design, or bad design, if you prefer in what regards scantlings.

All Bavarias Match 42 were called in to be repaired and Bavaria paid the bill. After the modification not any Match 42 had experienced any problem with the keel, or otherwise neither any of the other models (that have not been beefed up) had any keel problem.

Probably a Match 42 is a great buy because I am quite sure that Bavaria made sure that it would not happen again and that repair made probably the boat stronger than similar boats around. There are still several on charter service.


After the accident Bavaria discontinued the Match line and got a new designer for their boats (Farr). Also stopped the race with the French builders for lighter and faster boats and started to make heavier boats.
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Old 16-12-2015, 18:02   #608
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The Match 42 belonged to a new series of performance boats made from Bavaria. 3 models made, a 35, a 38 and a 42. The boats were designed by Doug Peterson in conjunction with the habitual Bavaria designer J&J.

From the three models only the 42 had keel problems. The problem was basically a problem of over optimistic design, or bad design, if you prefer in what regards scantlings.

All Bavarias Match 42 were called in to be repaired and Bavaria paid the bill. After the modification not any Match 42 had experienced any problem with the keel, or otherwise neither any of the other models (that have not been beefed up) had any keel problem.

Probably a Match 42 is a great buy because I am quite sure that Bavaria made sure that it would not happen again and that repair made probably the boat stronger than similar boats around. There are still several on charter service.


After the accident Bavaria discontinued the Match line and got a new designer for their boats (Farr). Also stopped the race with the French builders for lighter and faster boats and started to make heavier boats.
Helpful info Polux, thanks. Is Bavaria still independent, or is it now part of the Beneteau or Hanse groups? Can't keep track.

Also, did you say that the Oyster 825 was built with a "grid liner" or a "hull liner"? The latter seems to be associated mostly but not exclusively with the less expensive production boats, but the former serves a different function I believe. I've also read where "grid liner" & "matrix" are used interchangeably. This all came up earlier and I wanted to clarify based on a more recent comment of yours.
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Old 16-12-2015, 18:02   #609
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Well now I have been outed: the registered tonnage is 26.1, and gross 29.45. Dems da facts.
You are confusing registered tonnage with weight/displacement.

Registered tonnage has nothing to do with weight with the boat (or the water it displaces, which is the same thing.)

Registered tonnage varies by registry but it is basically a proxy for internal volume of the hull that can be used to carry stuff. Gross and net are just two different flavors of this proxy.

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Old 16-12-2015, 18:07   #610
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
They rebuilt the whole Macht 42 line after the incident,, I don't know if they are still building the match 42, I guess its a old boat ....
No, they modified the existing boats, beefing them and stop produced the Match series.

And it is not an old boat, it was designed in 2004, the accident was in 2005 and after that they delivered only the boats that were already commanded, modified the same way they had modified the existing ones. The last one was made in 2006.

At the time I saw the designs of the modification, it was nothing dificult to do (the dealers had done that), it was effective increasing substantially the laminate on that area but did not involve a modification of the existing structure, only a reinforcement.
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Old 16-12-2015, 19:09   #611
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Re: Oyster Problems?

I too will post more pics for edification shortly. Did a SS bow plate on a Bene today, hull thickness right on 5/16".
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Old 16-12-2015, 19:40   #612
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That is a good example of you mixing things up. A Isophtalic acid resin is not a "normal" poly resin (an orthophtalic one). The Iso has very good properties in what regards water sealing ( itis used on water bottles). This resin is much more expensive and has also better mechanical qualities allowing a longer elongation of a composite before it fails.

Obviously it is much more expensive. Funny the guys of Bavaria advertising the quality of the materials they use....without most not understanding a word of what they are talking about

And again I am talking out of the subject of this thread that is about badly built Oysters. I will try to be on topic and I will only post about that....or I try.
Orthophtalic resin was commonly used by boatbuilders 20 years ago, now almost all builders of polyester boats use isophthalic resins, so nothing special in that. Only the builders of the very cheapest boats use chopped mat for anything other than the skinout mat or veil as some people call it. The Bavaria quality materials and methods are the same as those found in a 16 foot Bayliner runabout ie. the very bottom of the quality market.
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Old 16-12-2015, 19:43   #613
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
You are confusing registered tonnage with weight/displacement.

Registered tonnage has nothing to do with weight with the boat (or the water it displaces, which is the same thing.)

Registered tonnage varies by registry but it is basically a proxy for internal volume of the hull that can be used to carry stuff. Gross and net are just two different flavors of this proxy.

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Thanks but I wasn't. If you look at my next post I refer to displacement as being rated at 51000 lbs officially. What I may have misunderstood was jmaja's original post, which I had thought referred to tonnage. Apologies for that.
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Old 16-12-2015, 19:47   #614
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
C'mon! I did not mean any disrespect to you, nor to your boat!

I did not say 55; what I did say is that older, H&P Oysters are not guilt-free and that I have seen leaky keels on H&P Oysters.

If you like, you can walk into any boatyard where boats get regularly hauled our before Atlantic crossings and look. Then will you form some kind of broad and non-judgmental opinions on which boats develop what kind of problems. They are just opinions, mine, yours or whatever.

Neither am I suggesting YOU are judging boats by their price. I say many people do, and this applies not just to boats but as well to many other goods like cars, jewellery, houses, i.a.

Please try taking things less personally. When in doubt, you can ask a poster to expand on their views, opinions and any other posted content.

So take some steam off the boiler ;-) and come visit me here so that I can show you a leaky H&P Oyster keel RIGHT NOW.

BTW while googling around, I spotted some interesting images of that unfortunate stolen Oyster that went on the beach. Look at her keel - does it not look like it got somewhat wobbly in the process? I have seen boats that ended atop a coral reef then got dragged back into the water - they had no ballast/stub issues at all. Hmmmmmm. Sure, too few samples to tell, BUT a bad aftertaste lingers. Apparently there is more than one way to build this part of the boat. Agreed?

Big hug, I have nothing against any particular boat. I love them all. Even that unfortunate one. She looked so happy at the dock.

Regards,
b.
Fair enough mate. Sorry for the bristling. You are right I should have asked for clarification. . The only way a keel on a 55 will be leaking is if there is a major crack in the hull in the joint or the keel bilge. Really unlikely, and I have never heard of a case. I hadn't heard of the stolen oyster… what model was it? Links to pics?
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Old 16-12-2015, 19:48   #615
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Post #4617: Production Boats and the Limits - Page 462 - SailNet Community

Your exact quote that was used was actually prefaced with "Even if a vessel is likely to be dismasted in a roll, . . . ." So I don't think the rig's survival was ever your point, but rather some boats having a better chance of survival by the way they are made. I don't think it was Bob's error so much as Smackdaddy highlighting your quote in a rather misleading way. I tried to clarify later on as you'll see, for whatever that was worth.
Thanks for that. It really infuriates me when people deliberately misquote like this. Especially deliberately misrepresenting to the likes of Bob Perry. As to rig's survival of course it wasn't my point as I stated multiple times, including in the actual post quoted, as you kindly note, and on a thread expressly about structural failure to the hull, no mention of the rig except in a dismissive tone. I will log onto that thread and have a look… I wonder who will be looking "stupid" when Perry sees the whole original post?
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