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Old 14-12-2015, 22:06   #481
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Re: Oyster Problems?

This thread started with a discussion of a manufacturers defect causing the loss of fairly new boat. It then devolved into the fairy tale of bullet proof plastic boats.

It is an easy bet that many of the members of this forum have walked through as many or more true shin skinning water tight bulkheads as I have. Never saw anything like that on a plastic sailboat. Never met an unlimited master that bragged of his ships ability to roll over.

If you own a steel or aluminum boat with water tight hatches, good for you. I don't wanna be on it when it does a 360. I don't want to replace the motor mounts and realign the engines. The mess it's going do to your spars is something I don't need to see.

I damn sure don't want to ride out the storm that caused it with ya.


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Old 14-12-2015, 22:50   #482
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
This thread started with a discussion of a manufacturers defect causing the loss of fairly new boat. It then devolved into the fairy tale of bullet proof plastic boats.

It is an easy bet that many of the members of this forum have walked through as many or more true shin skinning water tight bulkheads as I have. Never saw anything like that on a plastic sailboat. Never met an unlimited master that bragged of his ships ability to roll over.

If you own a steel or aluminum boat with water tight hatches, good for you. I don't wanna be on it when it does a 360. I don't want to replace the motor mounts and realign the engines. The mess it's going do to your spars is something I don't need to see.

I damn sure don't want to ride out the storm that caused it with ya.


Never use a hundred words when 3 will carry the message.
You are exaggerating, and I have no idea why. Sure a 360 will likely bring down a rig. Will it sink a boat? Depends on the boat. Many fiberglass boats are indeed designed to survive such an event. Don't want to believe it? Up to you. But fiction it is not. Sometimes you simply don't have a choice whether or not to ride out "that" storm. That's the whole point about a vessel designed for unrestricted ocean service versus one that is not. Plenty of plastic boats have survived 360s intact, and gone on to sail for many more years. The question here is one of whether a boat should be acceptable as an unrestricted service vessel which cannot so survive, and indeed more to the point, if its keel design and structure is insufficient for the redundancies that good seamanship demands of such a vessel. As to watertight bulikheads on a plastic vessel? Many have them. Many. Don't want to believe it? That's also up to you, but you would simply be wrong. In any case such bulkheads are useful for collision damage and flooding, NOT knockdowns, rolling, or capsize. I am left wondering if you personally have ever experienced a mast in the water knockdown or worse? I am thinking not. But your example of watertight bulkheads is about as relevant as one of Polux' usual examples.

As to your invoking "unlimited masters" in the same breath as suggesting that no plastic boat can survive multiple rollovers… what do you think the orange things are on the back of every single large commercial vessel? Plastic. Self righting. Capsizeproof. Watercraft.
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Old 14-12-2015, 23:57   #483
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Some boats under 80ft are obviously, expressly designed to be capsized and survive with self righting capability, as part of the fundamental design concept. So, Polux, no plastic boats designed to be rolled? How about this:



Or this:



Rollover tests are standard practise on small plastic ocean race craft. But of course, Capt. Eric and Polux, this has nothing to do with design… and these guys are just doing it for a lark, as it isn't really necessary for unrestricted Ocean service, at all. Just for fun, obviously.

And with regards to poor AVS ordinary production boats:

Crash Test Boat - Capsize

Note the difference betwen tests one and two. I ALWAYS consider full rollthrough in ANY major Ocean passage. Batteries, Soleboards, ALL lockers, fridges you name it are secured. You don't do it? Who is comfortable about sailing with whom?

From the text:

"In terms of what we learned, the state of the saloon after the unsecured roll confirmed that the simple, inexpensive measures we installed over the course of a couple of days with the most basic tools had, almost without exception, worked perfectly.

Secured by a lee cloth, you would have nothing more threatening than a cushion to deal with. The amount of flooding would be extremely alarming but with bilges free of detritus you would be better able to deal with it."


A well secured well found small craft such as a Valiant or Vancouver would fare much better than this battered old, retired, highly pliable mass production craft.

If you sail the likes of the Agulhas current and do not prepare for this eventuality, you are flying on a wing and a prayer, and no, I wouldn't want to be aboard.
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Old 14-12-2015, 23:59   #484
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
You are exaggerating, and I have no idea why. Sure a 360 will likely bring down a rig. Will it sink a boat? Depends on the boat. Many fiberglass boats are indeed designed to survive such an event. Don't want to believe it? Up to you. But fiction it is not. Sometimes you simply don't have a choice whether or not to ride out "that" storm. That's the whole point about a vessel designed for unrestricted ocean service versus one that is not. Plenty of plastic boats have survived 360s intact, and gone on to sail for many more years. The question here is one of whether a boat should be acceptable as an unrestricted service vessel which cannot so survive, and indeed more to the point, if its keel design and structure is insufficient for the redundancies that good seamanship demands of such a vessel. As to watertight bulikheads on a plastic vessel? Many have them. Many. Don't want to believe it? That's also up to you, but you would simply be wrong. In any case such bulkheads are useful for collision damage and flooding, NOT knockdowns, rolling, or capsize. I am left wondering if you personally have ever experienced a mast in the water knockdown or worse? I am thinking not. But your example of watertight bulkheads is about as relevant as one of Polux' usual examples.

As to your invoking "unlimited masters" in the same breath as suggesting that no plastic boat can survive multiple rollovers… what do you think the orange things are on the back of every single large commercial vessel? Plastic. Self righting. Capsizeproof. Watercraft.

Below is a pic of a ships water tight door. Never saw one on a fiberglass sailboat. They are designed to contain flooding.

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I have spent a bit of time in those orange lifeboats. Even a test drive isn't fun. My comment was about plastic sailboats, not life capsules.

My main complaint is this insistence on touting the virtues of pleasure boats capable of surviving Fastnet like conditions. They ain't built for it.


I have ridden out some bad weather on ships and boats that were built to handle it, but when hurricanes threatened we made preparations to run.

Yes, there are plenty of tough sail boats. Sometimes tough ain't enough.





Those newbies that take that rubbish to heart have my condolences.

Bad weather damages boats.

The US navy runs from bad weather.

No such thing as a boat designed for unrestricted weather service.





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Old 15-12-2015, 00:19   #485
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Re: Oyster Problems?

I flipped my Dolphin Senior many times. Sadly it wasn't self righting. Sometimes caused some damage but not always.

But that nor your pictures of a boat being rolled over by a cherry picker have any similarity to the waves that caused the deaths of the 5 folks on the Low Speed Chase.




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Old 15-12-2015, 00:34   #486
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Re: Oyster Problems?

1:30 in the morning and I am hoping to cast off at dawn.

Goodnight folks


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Old 15-12-2015, 04:37   #487
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
Below is a pic of a ships water tight door. Never saw one on a fiberglass sailboat. They are designed to contain flooding.
You have never seen one because you have never seen one. I have seen many and sailed on plenty of boats with them. You are simply wrong. I don't know why bother to show a picture, as it is perfectly obvious I know precisely what a watertight door looks like. But once again it is completely irrelevant to the discussion of roll throughs… I repeat these doors are useful to contain flooding. Other than that in violent weather they may actually be downright dangerous, as they are damn heavy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post

I have spent a bit of time in those orange lifeboats. Even a test drive isn't fun. My comment was about plastic sailboats, not life capsules.
There is no fundamental difference, except that keel boats are in fact stiffer and more stable overall. Your failure to understand the analogy is odd, as was your invocation of captains of large ships suggsting their vessels are capable of surviving capsize. In most cases, they aren't, but that is an entirely different matter, which is why your statement of it is completely irrelevant, as I replied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post

My main complaint is this insistence on touting the virtues of pleasure boats capable of surviving Fastnet like conditions. They ain't built for it.
Total nonsense. The overwhelming majority of uncrewed and abandoned boats DID survive not just "Fastnet like conditions" but the 79 Fastnet, the most violent in its history. Many of them had been rolled many times. Or didn't you notice these facts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
I have ridden out some bad weather on ships and boats that were built to handle it, but when hurricanes threatened we made preparations to run.

Yes, there are plenty of tough sail boats. Sometimes tough ain't enough.

Those newbies that take that rubbish to heart have my condolences.

Bad weather damages boats.

The US navy runs from bad weather.

No such thing as a boat designed for unrestricted weather service.

Never use a hundred words when 3 will carry the message.
Your words are just frankly weird. No one deliberately runs towards a hurricane unless they are an idiot. When did I say that? Stay out long enough and sail far enough in high latitudes and around the major capes and you simply cannot avoid being in super severe weather from time to time. It happens. It has happened to me, in well found sailing vessels, and I have survived, as did the vessels. Your statement that "bad weather damages boats" doesn't really say anything at all. It can do, sure, it damages some boats more than others. Yes. But the whole point is that because it CAN do, it is better to be in a strong, well found boat, that is capable of surviving such conditions. Obviously I am not suggesting that there is a boat which cannot be sunk, but it seems you are setting up a strawman here, or rather several of them> putting words in my mouth. Really I find it difficult to know what you are even talking about here. Your suggestion that what I am saying is "rubbish" is, frankly, rubbish, and you have said not one single statement which actually engages with what I have said, at all. Your reference to large ships is simply beside the point. Indeed I don't really know what point it is you think you are trying to make.
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Old 15-12-2015, 04:45   #488
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
I flipped my Dolphin Senior many times. Sadly it wasn't self righting. Sometimes caused some damage but not always.

But that nor your pictures of a boat being rolled over by a cherry picker have any similarity to the waves that caused the deaths of the 5 folks on the Low Speed Chase.


Never use a hundred words when 3 will carry the message.
It wasn't the waves that killed the folks on Low Speed Chase, so much as the rocks. The toughness that boat exhibited makes it pretty clear to me that it would have survived far more violent waves than that, minus the rocks. Once again I really don't know what you are talking about here.
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Old 15-12-2015, 04:48   #489
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Not debating that that is a well built boat, but you might want to blow up that one picture of the port side. Seems like almost all of the public pics are of the starboard hull for some reason. I count at least 8-10 large breeches in this hull. Just because the cast iron keel is unhurt means nothing, as I said before this boat is toast. The keel is probably the only part unhurt. Look closer. Looks like the transom molding has punched right through the hull for the entire port side aft, and the whole area between the straps is just pulverized. Which is the sort of thing one would expect of any boat in these circumstances, total structural failure. It's just that holding this boat up as some sort of exemplar because the keel is still attached is silly, when everything attached to it is pulp.
Perhaps you are correct however, I'd love to see how the Oyster would have fared in the same circumstances.
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Old 15-12-2015, 04:52   #490
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Re: Oyster Problems?

I guess this little Baby is not designed for tough conditions....
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Old 15-12-2015, 05:00   #491
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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I have no patient for this type or argumentation. Do you really think that any small sailboat is designed to face the big storms on the North Atlantic in winter or Cyclones?
Have you ever heard about the Contessa 32, Albin-Vega 27, Valiant 32 (also 37, 40)? Any of these boats will sail (and have done) through a big storm without losing their keel.

But how did this devolve into an argument about storm conditions? The boats under discussion that have failed were not in survival storms and probably never were. They were in situations where no reasonable person could have expected the keel to fall off. Any time a keel falls off then something is terribly wrong and blaming the owner for not doing proper inspections is absurd.

Keels. Should. Not. Fall. Off. No. Matter. What.
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Old 15-12-2015, 05:04   #492
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Not debating that that is a well built boat, but you might want to blow up that one picture of the port side. Seems like almost all of the public pics are of the starboard hull for some reason. I count at least 8-10 large breeches in this hull. Just because the cast iron keel is unhurt means nothing, as I said before this boat is toast. The keel is probably the only part unhurt. Look closer. Looks like the transom molding has punched right through the hull for the entire port side aft, and the whole area between the straps is just pulverized. Which is the sort of thing one would expect of any boat in these circumstances, total structural failure. It's just that holding this boat up as some sort of exemplar because the keel is still attached is silly, when everything attached to it is pulp.
I guess you're right that the boat is toast.

But that's not a comment on the structure, which has held up very well indeed!

Polux posted this as an example of a high aspect keel which is strongly attached. While I disagree with many things he has said in this thread, we do have to agree, I think, that it is possible to make a high aspect keel which is strong, and this is a good example.
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Old 15-12-2015, 05:05   #493
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Have you ever heard about the Contessa 32, Albin-Vega 27, Valiant 32 (also 37, 40)? Any of these boats will sail (and have done) through a big storm without losing their keel.

But how did this devolve into an argument about storm conditions? The boats under discussion that have failed were not in survival storms and probably never were. They were in situations where no reasonable person could have expected the keel to fall off. Any time a keel falls off then something is terribly wrong and blaming the owner for not doing proper inspections is absurd.

Keels. Should. Not. Fall. Off. No. Matter. What.
Amen
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Old 15-12-2015, 05:21   #494
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
Have you ever heard about the Contessa 32, Albin-Vega 27, Valiant 32 (also 37, 40)? Any of these boats will sail (and have done) through a big storm without losing their keel.

But how did this devolve into an argument about storm conditions? The boats under discussion that have failed were not in survival storms and probably never were. They were in situations where no reasonable person could have expected the keel to fall off. Any time a keel falls off then something is terribly wrong and blaming the owner for not doing proper inspections is absurd.

Keels. Should. Not. Fall. Off. No. Matter. What.

Excellent, yes .... No matter what ,,,since is a live or dead situation,
Kind of Jet Liners never ever can loose a wing,, and if it happen that particular plane is subject to a extensive investigation, if they found a faulty design, material or improper maintenance , they fine the company...
Ground the whole fleet, and rectify the issue in the future , something boat builders are free from this kind of regulations at the moment,,,
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Old 15-12-2015, 05:30   #495
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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. . . Kind of Jet Liners never ever can loose a wing . . .
Exactly.
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