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Old 14-12-2015, 05:55   #436
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Beneteau had provided advice on its recommended repair method in documentation issued to its after sales and dealer network. This advice recommended that a flange of at least 5cm be retained and that the bonding paste should be ground out and replaced before the matrix was then glassed to the hull, in order to retain the ‘I’ beam effect and matrix stiffness. All of the repairers agreed that the keel should be removed when necessary to effect keel repairs, a point confirmed within Beneteau’s advice


As far I know I never see this document or advice from Beneteau, can you provide a link?
That is a quote from the MAIB report and on the post above I posted a link to the MAIB report. For the full advice regarding the matrix repair (that was given to the MAIB inspectors) you have to ask Beneteau dealers.
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Old 14-12-2015, 06:29   #437
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Y... I just wish he wouldn't blandly argue for pretty much all modern production yachts as if they were all equal, and equally suited to any task set for them, no matter what.
You are very wrong if you think that. What I say and it is confirmed by reality, is that any main market mass production boat over 36ft, if able to circumnavigate if sailed with care taking into account favorable weather stations and latitudes. Bigger mass production boats can do that with less risks and most opt for boats over 40ft to do that. The number of production boats that has done that is huge and very little had experienced catastrophic failures that put the boat at risk.

That does not mean obviously that even among the not very expensive production boats I think all are equal and the ones on this forum (and out of this forum) that resource to me regarding having counsel about buying boats for different types of cruising or for offshore use, know that I don't view all boats as equal not even the mass production boats.

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What many who argue with him are saying is basically this: for long range unrestricted ocean service with great confidence it is better to have a boat designed specifically for that purpose, just as it is better to go end to end of the Sahara in a Land Cruiser rather than a quattro family sedan with a spoiler. ...
Except that there are no small yachts designed for unrestricted ocean service. All small yachts (less than 80 or 100ft) would have stability problems face to huge breaking waves you can find in really big storms.

I agree that the safety margins can vary with the type of boat, not so much in what regards stability (and a capsized boat is a boat in jeopardy for many reasons) but in what regards the boat being more or less strong.

Regarding boats designed for a particular purpose very few are designed taking as main design directive "long range ...ocean service" simply because that is not what 99% of the sailors due most of the time.

The ones that are designed with that more in mind are normally aluminum or steel boats, the ones that in Europe are called voyage boats and even those are not designed having as only directive to be designed for "unrestricted ocean service" and I doubt that it is even the main. In fact like all the others boats those are designed assuming they are cruising boats designed to cruise and enjoy life aboard and that is a contradictory requisite to have as main directive to be as seaworthy as possible.

Those boats are designed not to have a bigger stability than some of the others (in some cases quite the contrary) but to have a greater autonomy in what regards needed repairs (steel and Aluminum) to be more resistant to water impacts on the hull and to have less needed maintenance.
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Old 14-12-2015, 06:39   #438
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Paolo,

We have rehashed this many times in these threads. It's an astronomical expense to remove a keel then find the extent of bonding failure between grid and hull. It's an even greater expense to repair the de-bonding once the extent is identified (if it can be identified).

And why on earth does Bene not publish the repair procedure on their web site for all to read? Surely they know that boats are being repaired at non-dealer facilities. If they gave a whit about the safety of the sailors aboard their many boats one would expect they would make sure the whole industry knew the correct repair procedures.
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Old 14-12-2015, 06:55   #439
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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You are very wrong if you think that. What I say and it is confirmed by reality, is that any main market mass production boat over 36ft, if able to circumnavigate if sailed with care taking into account favorable weather stations and latitudes. Bigger mass production boats can do that with less risks and most opt for boats over 40ft to do that. The number of production boats that has done that is huge and very little had experienced catastrophic failures that put the boat at risk.

That does not mean obviously that even among the not very expensive production boats I think all are equal and the ones on this forum (and out of this forum) that resource to me regarding having counsel about buying boats for different types of cruising or for offshore use, know that I don't view all boats as equal not even the mass production boats.

Except that there are no small yachts designed for unrestricted ocean service. All small yachts (less than 80 or 100ft) would have stability problems face to huge breaking waves you can find in really big storms.

I agree that the safety margins can vary with the type of boat, not so much in what regards stability (and a capsized boat is a boat in jeopardy for many reasons) but in what regards the boat being more or less strong.

Regarding boats designed for a particular purpose very few are designed taking as main design directive "long range ...ocean service" simply because that is not what 99% of the sailors due most of the time.

The ones that are designed with that more in mind are normally aluminum or steel boats, the ones that in Europe are called voyage boats and even those are not designed having as only directive to be designed for "unrestricted ocean service" and I doubt that it is even the main. In fact like all the others boats those are designed assuming they are cruising boats designed to cruise and enjoy life aboard and that is a contradictory requisite to have as main directive to be as seaworthy as possible.

Those boats are designed not to have a bigger stability than some of the others (in some cases quite the contrary) but to have a greater autonomy in what regards needed repairs (steel and Aluminum) to be more resistant to water impacts on the hull and to have less needed maintenance.
Well I wholly disagree with your frankly bizarre suggestion that only boats above 80 feet have been designed expressly for unrestricted ocean service. That assertion is so flat out wrong it is hard to know whether you are even serious in making it!!??

As to the assertion you make here that "bigger is always safer", I am also surprised you make it, as it simply isn't true. Strength increases far less than weight as boats lengthen, and larger boats can easily be far more vulnerable than smaller ones for this reason, and for the reason that the longer they are, the more the force of water can act upon their length, and with a greater leverage in so doing. With regards to stability, the most violent repeated knockdowns I have exprienced have been in a 72 foot ketch and a 96 foot sloop, and I have been in violent storms in many a smaller craft.

As to the "very few", and with reference to this particular thread, really Oysters traditionally have been so designed, as have many others, too numerous to bother to list but known to virtually all on this forum, and pretty much NONE over 80 feet! The vessels you typically defend definitely not so, which is the whole point of what so many of us have been trying to get through to you all along! Again, here you admit much of what we say, and yet appear to want to hold onto the tattered shreds of whatever thesis it is you seem hell bent on holding on to… for example here taking tactical refuge in referring to aluminium and steel vessels as being true unrestricted service vessels, despite your having argued against that very position hammer and tongs against myself on another thread, even to the point of claiming that the steel example I had used had gone aground on "soft rocks"!… which makes me notice that you have not answered the question about who it is you work for?
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Old 14-12-2015, 07:01   #440
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
A pogo or a Epoxy plywood RM for unknown charted waters , good choice my friend, keep going... the Pogo I guess its the best choice/

Don't underestimate wood, and especially modern wood building techniques. You can build very strong boats that way, and RM do exactly that.


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Old 14-12-2015, 07:13   #441
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Re: Oyster Problems?

This is the process involved so far so good, drop the keel, drop the mast, grind to bare fiberglass a wide area in the bottom section, grind the cracks until reach solid healty laminate, when you have a thin hull sometimes you reach the interior Lol, remove the interior furniture around the keel adjacent areas , that mean floor boards, salon table, mast step or mast compression tube, piping, wiring, etc.. grind the wole grid around the keel section to bare fiberglass, flanges , bays.....etc... grind the cracks open ,
reinforce and laminate the whole mess, glass the flanges to the bays, glass the grid to the hull even if the beams reach the waterline, chainplates etc.. reglass the bay panels.... this is so far the process , if the boat is made in Poly and gelcoat we use the same OEM materials...


Now the exterior , reglass the grinded areas to fill the grinded material, faired, and regelcoat et...
Redrill the keel bolt holes.


Now the keel, inspect the keel bolts , clean the whole top of the keel, if keel bolts are bad, replace it, bend it, corroded etc... clean really well the 2 surfaces, keel and hull , stub area. Reinstall the keel in place, Travelift operator tense , lots of patience,
lots of $$$$$ in 5200...retight the keel bolts to OEM especifications , clean the whole interior, reinstall wiring, piping, furniture.
Step the mast, again $$$$....


It could be a 10000$ bill easy, depend of the size and materials, and this is good until your next 6 knts grounding... If you have plenty of cash to do it again....
And this is the keel repair Bible for all of this Jeaneaus, Beneteaus, or whatever crap floating with a 6 ft fin keel attached to a thin hull with a hollow grid liner... no stubs involved....
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Old 14-12-2015, 07:15   #442
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Don't underestimate wood, and especially modern wood building techniques. You can build very strong boats that way, and RM do exactly that.


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I'm sorry maybe you right, but I cant see how Ply with epoxy can be stronger than fiberglass, in a grounding scenario...
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Old 14-12-2015, 08:12   #443
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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It could be a 10000$ bill easy, depend of the size and materials, and this is good until your next 6 knts grounding... If you have plenty of cash to do it again....
And this is the keel repair Bible for all of this Jeaneaus, Beneteaus, or whatever crap floating with a 6 ft fin keel attached to a thin hull with a hollow grid liner... no stubs involved....
And not much different for many other brands twice as expensive. Why plenty of cash? No insurance?
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Old 14-12-2015, 09:06   #444
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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And not much different for many other brands twice as expensive. Why plenty of cash? No insurance?
Wrong, my last C&C 40 plow in a underwater pipeline at hull speed in the Ft Lauderdale Canals , just a dent in the lead, no cracks inside or damage in the structure, small stub, they are sturdy boats.... plenty boats out there with sturdy and well designed keel joints able to resist lots of punishment without notice a single crack inside,,,,,

Insurance ? I bite my tongue, no comment....
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Old 14-12-2015, 09:42   #445
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
This is the process involved so far so good, drop the keel, drop the mast, grind to bare fiberglass a wide area in the bottom section, grind the cracks until reach solid healty laminate, when you have a thin hull sometimes you reach the interior Lol, remove the interior furniture around the keel adjacent areas , that mean floor boards, salon table, mast step or mast compression tube, piping, wiring, etc.. grind the wole grid around the keel section to bare fiberglass, flanges , bays.....etc... grind the cracks open ,
reinforce and laminate the whole mess, glass the flanges to the bays, glass the grid to the hull even if the beams reach the waterline, chainplates etc.. reglass the bay panels.... this is so far the process , if the boat is made in Poly and gelcoat we use the same OEM materials...


Now the exterior , reglass the grinded areas to fill the grinded material, faired, and regelcoat et...
Redrill the keel bolt holes.


Now the keel, inspect the keel bolts , clean the whole top of the keel, if keel bolts are bad, replace it, bend it, corroded etc... clean really well the 2 surfaces, keel and hull , stub area. Reinstall the keel in place, Travelift operator tense , lots of patience,
lots of $$$$$ in 5200...retight the keel bolts to OEM especifications , clean the whole interior, reinstall wiring, piping, furniture.
Step the mast, again $$$$....


It could be a 10000$ bill easy, depend of the size and materials, and this is good until your next 6 knts grounding... If you have plenty of cash to do it again....
And this is the keel repair Bible for all of this Jeaneaus, Beneteaus, or whatever crap floating with a 6 ft fin keel attached to a thin hull with a hollow grid liner... no stubs involved....


No point bringing the real world into this, I much prefer P's fantasy land where fiberglass dust doesn't itch and sparkles like Pixie dust, and all repairs are performed overnight by little fairies who don't bill for their time, and who's work magically makes something that was not structurally sound when built just bombproof! He will never tell us honestly what he does for a living, or whether he's ever even held a 7" grinder in his hands. Because then people might realize he doesn't know anything he didn't read in a magazine or on the Internet, which makes all of it more than a little suspect. Never met anyone with such an inflated ego, never built a boat but will argue with three pro boat builders about boat building!
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Old 14-12-2015, 09:46   #446
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Wrong, my last C&C 40 plow in a underwater pipeline at hull speed in the Ft Lauderdale Canals , just a dent in the lead, no cracks inside or damage in the structure, small stub, they are sturdy boats.... plenty boats out there with sturdy and well designed keel joints able to resist lots of punishment without notice a single crack inside,,,,,

Insurance ? I bite my tongue, no comment....



Lol insurance!
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Old 14-12-2015, 10:20   #447
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Wrong, my last C&C 40 plow in a underwater pipeline at hull speed in the Ft Lauderdale Canals , just a dent in the lead, no cracks inside or damage in the structure, small stub, they are sturdy boats.... plenty boats out there with sturdy and well designed keel joints able to resist lots of punishment without notice a single crack inside,,,,,

Insurance ? I bite my tongue, no comment....
That's almost 40 years old model. Yes boats where more heavily built (and slower) back then, but many of those need repairs after hard groundings around here. C&C is almost non-excisting brand here so I don't know about them, but as I said earlier e.g. S&S Swans have been repaired after groundings.

Sorry I don't understand what's wrong with having an insurance. 90+% of the boat repairs are covered by insurance around here and everyone having a boat with some value has an insurance that covers groundings even if the cause was a stupid mistake by the owner.
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Old 14-12-2015, 10:25   #448
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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No point bringing the real world into this, I much prefer P's fantasy land where fiberglass dust doesn't itch and sparkles like Pixie dust, and all repairs are performed overnight by little fairies who don't bill for their time, and who's work magically makes something that was not structurally sound when built just bombproof! He will never tell us honestly what he does for a living, or whether he's ever even held a 7" grinder in his hands. Because then people might realize he doesn't know anything he didn't read in a magazine or on the Internet, which makes all of it more than a little suspect. Never met anyone with such an inflated ego, never built a boat but will argue with three pro boat builders about boat building!
Thx Minaret, that's exactly the whole point,, if they never attempt or see in site how painfull , expensive and dirty its a repair like that , hard to see the whole picture, even I don't know if Polux understand the grounding mechanics in those keels , pan liners boats.... to me its really sad to see those boat owners with tight budgets linked to a huge expensive repair ,, I see lots of weird stuff performed for owners, yard workers, etc,,, things like steel straps screwed to the aft root side of a keel to close the gap, FG on top of antifouling, goops of 5200 here and there ,the list is endless..... and droping a keel to make a proper repair just few smart folks.... what we can do? not much since pro advice sometimes is $$$$, and its true, you get what you pay for.... huge compromise,,, I prefer to spend lots of cash in sails, electronics etc.. V fixing a keel to gain the OEM integrity....Amen...
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Old 14-12-2015, 10:28   #449
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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I'm sorry maybe you right, but I cant see how Ply with epoxy can be stronger than fiberglass, in a grounding scenario...
It depends on the scantlings, doesn't it?

Wood is a marvelous material -- nature's own composite. Many types of wood are comparable or better than high strength steel, in terms of specific strength, I believe.
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Old 14-12-2015, 10:31   #450
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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It depends on the scantlings, doesn't it?

Wood is a marvelous material -- nature's own composite. Many types of wood are comparable or better than high strength steel, in terms of specific strength, I believe.
No idea, i dont work with wood in any way, i just think ply with epoxy could be light and strong but not better than FG in terms of strength.... but anyway I'm not a expert in ply epoxy construction....
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