Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-12-2015, 23:32   #316
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post

...

But I do not agree that hard groundings are common...unless the sailor is not a good or careful one. Done many miles without any hard grounding and I have friends that have made as many or more miles than me without hard groundings too.

I am willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of those miles, if not all of them, are in Europe, or else in sailing zones with excellent hydrography. A large area of the world remains very poorly charted, and with regard to fine detail, such as the position of coral heads, in many areas not at all. Nigel Calder is, I believe, both a good and careful sailor, yet asserts that he has grounded many times, and has a photo of his boat grounded so hard that the propeller is clear of the water with the hull at around a 35 degree angle in one of his texts. The photo was in context of his assertion that grounding is a normal occurence in adventure cruising, and specifically in context of the entirely reasonable assertion that a boat must be built to take heavy groundings and sail onwards many thousands of miles.

… or don't you think that we should be sailing the likes of the Tuamotus, for one example?

Further, among many "credit card captains" of the charter sailing fraternity, groundings are not only common, but habitual.
__________________

__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 02:10   #317
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It seems to me that it i the other way around: If you know of any other problem with an Oceanis 55, please post about it, It will be interesting news and can prove you right

For all brands reputation is a big asset and a bad reputation may be the end of a Brand. For Beneteau, like all brands, a good reputation is essential to be successful.

Beneteau only has a bad reputation on boat forums, on the real world it enjoys a good reputation, otherwise it would not be nº1 on boat sales for many years. It is not about price since there are cheaper boats on the market and other similarly priced.

If the reputation regarding customer follow up was as bad as you think it is...well, they would not have a good reputation neither would be the nº1 in sales.

Regarding Beneteau after sales quality and care you can go to the thread about the Oceanis 38, that has been bought by several members of this forum and see how they have addressed the problems that sometimes happened with new boats. They are satisfied with the after sales service.
Maybe in your Planet, Bene have a bad reputation with some models, the diference is the 80% of new owners are not aware of the problems.
Having work in 3 diferent countries , the comments around are always the same, worst in the last 15 years , maybe you can enlighten us in How is posible a Beneteau model like the OC 43 with a rudder structure problem in the whole line by factory is not fix it , no recalls, not a single word from Beneteau, nil, zero...... if this is good reputation then i dont know the meaning of Bad reputation around......
__________________

__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 11:12   #318
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I did not said that could not happen. Said it is very rare. How many miles do you have and how many hard groundings did you experienced?

I had been caught once on a freak meteorological phenomena with winds out of the scale (it was night and I don't really know what it was) that ripped my 3rd refeed lose mainsail out of the mast, ripped the flag and heeled the boat at 90º for several minutes (they looked very long to me).

That wind would probably capsize any cat and it is not for that cats are unsafe, because those accidents are very rare.

Anybody can run over a container and depending on speed, any fiberglass boat can be severely damaged to the point of being sunk by one. The risk of that to happen is however very low and does not make fiberglass boats unsafe. If so we would all be sailing steel boats that are much more resistant to that kind of contacts.

Safety is never absolute unless you sail on a battleship and even so all is relative. The risk of catching a rock on well chartered waters (that is where most cruising boats sail) where is marked 9m on the charts is very low.

However I would say that in what regards me my level of awareness in what regards to be careful with depths only become lower when depths are over 20m. At 15m and under I pay constant attention to depths and reduce the speed of the boat.
I've only had one hard grounding in maybe 50,000 miles over my life. I can't count the number of soft groundings, but grounding on rocks -- one. But every sailor I know in the Baltic has had a hard grounding.

It's not at all the same as cats capsizing, which is 1000x rarer, I think.

I think a cruising boat designed for any kind of long distance cruising ought to be able to withstand a hard grounding without damage.

That's why in my opinion very thin, deep, racing type keels are not desirable for cruising boats, notwithstanding how much fun they may be to sail.

Everything is a compromise of course, but it's possible to design a bulb keel with reasonably good hydrodynamics which is nevertheless long enough to be very strongly attached.

In my opinion, it is irresponsible to sell racing type keels which could never withstanding any kind of stress, by the pure geometry of them, to mass market cruisers on mass produced cruising boats.

This comment of course does not apply to racing boats or racer cruisers, where you would be willing to risk the keel getting ripped off in a hard grounding, for the extra performance. But you would sail such a boat differently, especially in unknown waters, or badly charted waters. Certain no good for the Baltic
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 11:12   #319
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Follow-up article by Charlie Doane on Oyster's previously released public statement:

OYSTER TELLS ALL: Statement on Polina Star Keel Failure | Sailfeed
Interesting comments by SmackDaddy too.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 11:32   #320
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 83
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
This comment of course does not apply to racing boats or racer cruisers, where you would be willing to risk the keel getting ripped off in a hard grounding, for the extra performance. But you would sail such a boat differently, especially in unknown waters, or badly charted waters. Certain no good for the Baltic
I have a cruiser racer, but I haven't yet had a hard grounding with it. But I do expect it keep its keel in place in any grounding. I don't expect it to survive without damage. Many of my friends have had hard groundings requiring structural repair with different kinds of boats from pure cruisers to pure racers. None have lost a keel and none sank, but a few did get some water leaks.

Well one did lose rig, rudder and keel and the hole boat ended up on top of an island several meters above sea level. But that wasn't a grounding in my book. They drifted to an island (solid granite, not rocks) stern first after not being able to jibe and then not being able to tack in 3 m average wave height and 15 m/s wind. The crew managed to jump unhurt to the island while the keel was still in place, but the rudder and rig were not.
__________________
jmaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 11:36   #321
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I've only had one hard grounding in maybe 50,000 miles over my life. I can't count the number of soft groundings, but grounding on rocks -- one. But every sailor I know in the Baltic has had a hard grounding.
...
I think a cruising boat designed for any kind of long distance cruising ought to be able to withstand a hard grounding without damage.

That's why in my opinion very thin, deep, racing type keels are not desirable for cruising boats, notwithstanding how much fun they may be to sail.

Everything is a compromise of course, but it's possible to design a bulb keel with reasonably good hydrodynamics which is nevertheless long enough to be very strongly attached.

In my opinion, it is irresponsible to sell racing type keels which could never withstanding any kind of stress, by the pure geometry of them, to mass market cruisers on mass produced cruising boats.
...
So you say that sailed about 50 000nm and one hard grounding, I sailed close to that and none, I know of guys that sailed as much as me or even more without any hard grounding, the vast majority of sailboats are sold to sailors that sailed a lot less than that and yet you think the keels should be designed to take hard groundings without damage?

I point out that taking damage or not (assuming you are talking about structural damage) as nothing to do with the keel shape, being it a foil with a torpedo or a bulbed one but whit the way it is fixed to the hull and the way forces are distributed by the keel.

A narrow torpedo keel can be much more strongly attached to the hull and boat structure as the one on a Oyster, as this accident have showed. Many brands have the keel foil attached to a carbon or steel structure that distributes all the efforts by the hull and not always very expensive boats, Salona does that and More two and it is difficult to find cheaper than More.

I have seen several boats with deep torpedo keels that were thrown to the beach, with the keel bouncing violently on the hard sand due to wave impacts, that were previously pulled again to the sea, with the keel bouncing around hard due to waves without sustaining any serious damage.

That is strong enough for me and I don't intend to be so careless as to allow that to happen. As I have said when I sail under 15m of depth I am very careful and go at slow speed.

Anyway regarding the Baltic I believe that Imaja that seems to live there had already replied to you and It seems to me a knowledgeable guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmaja View Post
Yes we have a lot of rocks in Finland, but very few non charted ones unless you sail in the areas far from the fairways in regions not well charted (the paper charts show the quality of charting). You should avoid areas with very few depth measures and also areas of less than 10 m depth outside fairways.

I don't think your guess is correct. There are many groundings every year here including high aspect keels and I have never heard of a single one sinking due to hitting a rock. But quite a few very large structural repairs have been made also to boats with quite traditional keels....
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 11:51   #322
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
I am willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of those miles, if not all of them, are in Europe, or else in sailing zones with excellent hydrography. A large area of the world remains very poorly charted, and with regard to fine detail, such as the position of coral heads, in many areas not at all. Nigel Calder is, I believe, both a good and careful sailor, yet asserts that he has grounded many times, and has a photo of his boat grounded so hard that the propeller is clear of the water with the hull at around a 35 degree angle in one of his texts. The photo was in context of his assertion that grounding is a normal occurence in adventure cruising, and specifically in context of the entirely reasonable assertion that a boat must be built to take heavy groundings and sail onwards many thousands of miles.

… or don't you think that we should be sailing the likes of the Tuamotus, for one example?

Further, among many "credit card captains" of the charter sailing fraternity, groundings are not only common, but habitual.

Yes, all my mile where done in very well chartered waters, but then 95% of all the miles made by sailboats are made in very well chartered waters because it is there that they are and it is there that they are sailed.

The vast majority of those sailboats will never leave those waters so regarding those boats (the vast majority) no need to design boats in a way that they can survive very hard groundings without damage and without needing repairs.

Now if we are talking about the 1% of the boats that is sailed on badly charted waters I agree with you. I would want not only a very strong keel but one that avoided hard groundings at all, that is what made Cornell on his last two circumnavigations choosing boats with a centerboard that when near land can be raised the and motor safely.

Personally for sailing on those places I would prefer one of the new swing keels with all the ballast on the keel (that allow more powerful sailboats) and also an aluminum or Kevlar hull.

Of course, I (like most) do not wish to sail on those places and I don't want to have the type of boat designed for doing that, that has disadvantages over a boat designed to sail on well chartered waters, but that is another story
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 12:07   #323
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes, all my mile where done in very well chartered waters, but then 95% of all the miles made by sailboats are made in very well chartered waters because it is there that they are and it is there that they are sailed.

The vast majority of those sailboats will never leave those waters so regarding those boats (the vast majority) no need to design boats in a way that they can survive very hard groundings without damage and without needing repairs.

Now if we are talking about the 1% of the boats that is sailed on badly charted waters I agree with you. I would want not only a very strong keel but one that avoided hard groundings at all, that is what made Cornell on his last two circumnavigations choosing boats with a centerboard that when near land can be raised the and motor safely.

Personally for sailing on those places I would prefer one of the new swing keels with all the ballast on the keel (that allow more powerful sailboats) and also an aluminum or Kevlar hull.

Of course, I (like most) do not wish to sail on those places and I don't want to have the type of boat designed for doing that, that has disadvantages over a boat designed to sail on well chartered waters, but that is another story
So, lets say , if you choose to circumnavigate the globe with your comet, we have to believe you will navigate well charted waters? even with a well charted electronic chart or paper chart **** happen, and I guess you never be in the Caribbean or pacific? I'm wrong? where groundings is the norm of everyday between the cruising community.... your logic,, no offense Pol is one coming from a med marina occasional cruiser,, come down here and I show you how shallow are the waters around here..... free beer!!!
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 12:09   #324
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmaja View Post
Yes we have a lot of rocks in Finland, but very few non charted ones unless you sail in the areas far from the fairways in regions not well charted (the paper charts show the quality of charting). You should avoid areas with very few depth measures and also areas of less than 10 m depth outside fairways.

I don't think your guess is correct. There are many groundings every year here including high aspect keels and I have never heard of a single one sinking due to hitting a rock. But quite a few very large structural repairs have been made also to boats with quite traditional keels.

One boat sank when its anchor failed and it hit the rudder in the rocks. A few boats have sunk due to problems with through hulls or piping.

Riding up a rock is really not that bad for the structure. It is much worse to totally stop at the first hit. It is the rate of deceleration that counts. It does help to have a very long keel with a lot of slope in the leeding edge, since those can't really bounce back they will just ride up even the steepest rock.
There are very many uncharted rocks on Finnish waters, at least in the Eastern Gulf of Finland - I've SEEN them. And those are just the ones awash. A former Finnish Navy officer, a friend of mine, told me that the charts intentionally leave out most of the rocks outside the fairways - to confuse the Russians in case of another attack.

It took me a long time to figure out why Finnish sailors will sail a long way around to avoid getting out of the fairway.

My keel is not that long, but it's long enough to give a great deal of meat in the attachment. It's a bit longer than it is deep. The forward part of the lead bulb is sloped upward for the reasons you mentioned. I care about lot about upwind performance, but for my use It can't have a thin racing keel. I have started drying out against walls for maintenance, too, something you wouldn't do on a racing keel.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 12:49   #325
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
So, lets say , if you choose to circumnavigate the globe with your comet, we have to believe you will navigate well charted waters? even with a well charted electronic chart or paper chart **** happen, and I guess you never be in the Caribbean or pacific? I'm wrong? where groundings is the norm of everyday between the cruising community.... your logic,, no offense Pol is one coming from a med marina occasional cruiser,, come down here and I show you how shallow are the waters around here..... free beer!!!
I guess I have a communication problem with you: I have stated that I have not any will to circumnavigate. I stated also that if I had the desire to sail on remote places and uncharted waters I would chose a different type of boat, a Pogo or a RM could be a good choice, among the affordable boats, giving the way I like to cruise or sail.

It is perfectly possible to make a circumnavigation without going out of well charted waters and most do so.

Finally even if I don't see nothing wrong regarding sailing from marina to marina, or port to port, I had already said plenty times that I go very rarely to marinas and sometimes go to small ports to enjoy a dinner.

On the last season in about 90 days cruising time and 2500nm I went five times to a marina, one of the times to pick a piece that was mailed there, two times to exchange books, one time because I needed to take the boat out of water due to a problem and another time on my wife birthday since she wanted to visit by car some nice historical places.

During that time I have been in two city ports to pass the night, refuel, put water and have a nice dinner.

That makes 7 days out of 90. The rest I staid on anchor. I hope that you get this right once and for all, that I do pass most of the time on anchor, because I like it. Also I don't see as any kind of downgraded sailors the ones that like to go from port to port or from marina to marina. In fact there are lots of them that like to eat well at the restaurant and visit comfortably a new city after a good sailing day, leaving the boat on a safe place (regarding winds and theft)....and have the money to do so.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 13:39   #326
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I guess I have a communication problem with you: I have stated that I have not any will to circumnavigate. I stated also that if I had the desire to sail on remote places and uncharted waters I would chose a different type of boat, a Pogo or a RM could be a good choice, among the affordable boats, giving the way I like to cruise or sail.

It is perfectly possible to make a circumnavigation without going out of well charted waters and many do so.

Finally even if I don't see nothing wrong regarding sailing from marina to marina, or port to port, I had already said plenty times that I go very rarely to marinas and sometimes go to small ports to enjoy a dinner.

On the last season in about 90 days cruising time and 2500nm I went five times to a marina, one of the times to pick a piece that was mailed there, two times to exchange books, one time because I needed to take the boat out of water due to a problem and another time on my wife birthday since she wanted to visit by car some nice historical places.

During that time I have been in two city ports to pass the night, refuel, put water and have a nice dinner.

That makes 7 days out of 90. The rest I staid on anchor. I hope that you get this right once and for all, that I do pass most of the time on anchor, because I like it and don't see as any kind of downgraded sailors the ones that like to go from port to port or from marina to marina. In fact there are lots of them that like to eat well at the restaurant after a good sailing day and have the money to do so.


Do you see how absurd sounds that? the chance to found a rock in your way in a well charted chart is real, is even in those well charted waters as you say where most bad things happen.

A pogo or a Epoxy plywood RM for unknown charted waters , good choice my friend, keep going... the Pogo I guess its the best choice/

Overall , no one choose a boat A or B if the waters are well charted or not, you choose a boat that fit your needs and espectations, obviously if you choose a slim fin keeler racer cruisers you know that is not the best option for long term cruising, sooner or later even the most experienced skipper kiss the ground, Fact!!
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 14:18   #327
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
So you say that sailed about 50 000nm and one hard grounding, I sailed close to that and none, I know of guys that sailed as much as me or even more without any hard grounding, the vast majority of sailboats are sold to sailors that sailed a lot less than that and yet you think the keels should be designed to take hard groundings without damage?. . .
That's exactly the same logically defective argument as "I've never been in a car crash, so why do I need airbags?".

The answer to your question is -- yes, I do think that keels should be designed to take hard groundings, without damage, except for performance boats where the buyers are making a conscious choice to give up this strength. I would even write it into the CE classification rules, if it were up to me.

Everyone will decide for himself, what his priorities are, and some people may rationally choose to have a less strong keel for the sake of better performance. I might make the same choice myself for a different kind of sailing, than what I do.

But mass produced cruising boats, not intended for people who are making that conscious choice -- that's just wrong.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 14:39   #328
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Cruising the Gulf of Mexico.
Boat: 1980 Morgan 415
Posts: 1,439
Re: Oyster Problems?

The loyalty shown by owners of Oyster boats and the unusually open statement from the company give me hope that the company will survive this mishap.

It is very unusual to see a glimmer of honesty from the corporate world.


I sleep better on the hook
__________________
Working on spending my children's inheritance.
Cap Erict3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 15:22   #329
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,964
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That's exactly the same logically defective argument as "I've never been in a car crash, so why do I need airbags?".

The answer to your question is -- yes, I do think that keels should be designed to take hard groundings, without damage, except for performance boats where the buyers are making a conscious choice to give up this strength. I would even write it into the CE classification rules, if it were up to me.

Everyone will decide for himself, what his priorities are, and some people may rationally choose to have a less strong keel for the sake of better performance. I might make the same choice myself for a different kind of sailing, than what I do.

But mass produced cruising boats, not intended for people who are making that conscious choice -- that's just wrong.
It seems like it's all about margins -- performance, comfort, safety. But if you're not an educated buyer, it would be difficult to make a reasoned decision, especially if you were relying merely on the bare minimum standard -- the EU/CE Classification Rating that is.
__________________
Exile is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 15:39   #330
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 83
Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
There are very many uncharted rocks on Finnish waters, at least in the Eastern Gulf of Finland - I've SEEN them. And those are just the ones awash. A former Finnish Navy officer, a friend of mine, told me that the charts intentionally leave out most of the rocks outside the fairways - to confuse the Russians in case of another attack.

It took me a long time to figure out why Finnish sailors will sail a long way around to avoid getting out of the fairway.
I have been boating 40 years in the Gulf of Finland. I wouldn't say there are very many uncharted rocks and I do sail outside the fairways. It would depend on how you define an uncharted rock. If you sail close to islands (say less than 50-100 m), depth is less than 10 m and there are no uniform depth curves, you will certainly find many rocks. Also sailing in any region under 10 m outside fairways is a bit risky. Going inside 6 m depth curve is certainly looking for trouble.

But there aren't really many uncharted rocks in +10 m regions, thus it is quite safe there.

Most groundings are due to navigation errors or taking some risks. The last grounding I had (7 years ago) was when I sailed through a 4 m depth marking on a wrong side of a spar bouy. I knew it was the wrong side, but I thought the 4 m would be quite reliable, since I knew that area was recently charted. Well there was a rock at 1 m depth and we climbed on it with my earlier cruiser racer flying a spinnaker. It took an hour to get off and at the end of the season the boat was repaired (40 hours of work).

I then contacted the charting office and was told that 1 m vs. 4 m was not important since it is shallow anyway for the 9 m fairway there. And they also checked that the charting boat did not measure that since they avoid the known shallow places in order to not have a grounding.

The weirdest thing was that I found an old chart from early 90's which had a 1 m depth marking and 4.2 m quite close. But the 1 m was just a single line not 1.0 m. That old chart marking was hand drawn. Then the old charts were scanned to make the whole thing digital. In this process the 1 was lost and only the 4.2 remained.

However now that place is marked with a rock mark.

I don't think missing rocks have anything to do with the Russians except for the fact that most of the charting was done by the Russians 100+ years ago and is still basis of many charted areas.

However there are many secret navy fairways not marked on the charts you can buy.
__________________

__________________
jmaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
oyster

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oyster 53 vs Oyster 56 thoreed Monohull Sailboats 7 08-03-2015 22:09
Oyster Lightwave 48 - Thoughts? NTD Monohull Sailboats 15 24-02-2010 15:47
Oyster Sloop Christeen (1883) Soundbounder Off Topic Forum 0 16-04-2009 07:54
Oyster 41 Talbot Monohull Sailboats 10 06-10-2008 18:50



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:29.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.