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Old 08-12-2015, 18:09   #271
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Re: Oyster Problems?

If they don't say what went wrong exactly do we really know that they have found the cause? If they haven't found the cause then it is very unlikely they will have found the cure.

More doubt is cast over their judgement when they claim the parts were possibly damaged such that a full analysis may not be possible. I don't believe this assertion. I have seen the photos.

Oyster have not said this is the end of their findings, and I hope it isn't.

More transparency is needed from Oyster. Fudge and fuddle will only make things worse.
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Old 08-12-2015, 18:29   #272
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Re: Oyster Problems?

All things considered, I think that the statement from Oyster was about as much as could be hoped for at this point in time. Obviously, liability is a concern, as is the continuing bad publicity.

I expect that an independent analysis will appear at some point and hopefully a clear determination of the cause(s) will be made public. Until then, speculation and (particularly) Oyster bashing does little to elevate the conversation.

A lot of this sounds too much like sour grapes.
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Old 08-12-2015, 18:34   #273
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Everyone who looks at that keel structure is concluding it looks terribly underbuilt.

These press releases help ease the cognitive dissonance in those folks who own Oysters. They'll see tranparency and competence in them.

I don't have that baggage (for Oyster anyways, I've got a cheoy lee, so leaky decks are my blind spot )

I see spin ("oh them? they hit something. oh wait, ummm well we arent gonna build like that anymore we promise. but also that probably has nothing to do with why it broke. Guess we'll never know, too much damage, bye.") but worst of all, I see a very, very weakly built keel.

I think its bad for sailing if these guys don't lose their shirts on this.
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Old 09-12-2015, 02:40   #274
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Could be the large infusion technique,, i mean nothing wrong with that except that deep and long stubs are a pain in the butt to build with a single mold.... resin used in the 825 i suspect is poly with maybe 1 or 2 resin layers of vinilester for osmosis protection.. as far i know the best metod to laminate thick stubs, rudder skegs, or any other deep cavities in a hull mold is with a split mold , that mean 2 hull sides laminated apart,,, something happen really wrong with the laminate thicknes in the 825, and if i remember well , resin quality , humidity, and a clean enviroment are part of the game.. and to be honest , those 5 mm partitions in the keel sump are not worth if the keel sump have a proper thicknes , so they play the light and thin game with those partitions ... obviously with a bad result... divinicell or any other synthetic foam for keel structures is in my opinion a mistake to if they are glassed thin,, you can get a really well laminated hull with a proper thicknes ,,,,and stringers , beams , partitions in the light side,, or a thin and weak hull with a more solid structure...
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:38   #275
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Certainly not. .
To my best knowledge this 90-ft Oyster was built in Turkey.
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Old 09-12-2015, 06:29   #276
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Overall I see this move as necessary, and fairly brave. We did not hear any such statement or even a whisper of any internal investigation or evaluation whatsoever from Beneteau following the pretty damning MAIB report into the Cheeki Rafiki disaster.

The clarifications outlined above are of course necessary. We do need to know what the new process was, what role was played by the (obvious to all it would appear, myself included for sure!) underbuild of the stub, and more clarity in general from Oyster.

That said the press release seems like a big move towards admission of company fault. I saw no words of attempt to shift the blame, and full admission is perhaps still in the post, or else being lawyered to death. Of course if blame is indeed to be laid at their door, they should ante up. But this statement has gone a long way down that road, and probably further than their legal advice, which certainly pored over the letter, would have liked.

It seems to me that this very thread may have prompted the release of the statement, particularly given Alessio's involvement. Continuing to bash them as if they had tried completely to whitewash this is pointless, disingenuous, and unhelpful. If they finally admit fully to a fault on their part, and rectify it for the few boats which (appear to) have been affected, as well as returning to the former principles of the company, then all power to them, and so much the better.

That said, in due course Oyster must drop the other shoe, and fully answer the questions it has posed as against its own processes, and judgement, in this case.
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Old 09-12-2015, 06:55   #277
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Overall I see this move as necessary, and fairly brave. We did not hear any such statement or even a whisper of any internal investigation or evaluation whatsoever from Beneteau following the pretty damning MAIB report into the Cheeki Rafiki disaster.

.
It is quite different story when this happens to a almost new yacht model, which is still built and even many under construction/ordered or just released. You must do something about it. First 40.7 was a long time ago out of production and known to be able to handle normal sailing conditions. Also it was known that an official report will be made due to loss of lives. That report didn't find anything badly wrong in the way the boat was designed and made. Bavaria 42 Match was more comparable to this case as it was a new model. Bavaria didn't handle it well in the beginning, but quite soon it released the keel construction and how it will be enhanced in all Bavaria 38 and 42 Matches at the cost of Bavaria. I haven't heard about any keel problems with any of the Match series since then. Both Oyster and Bavaria started by denial and speculations about grounding as the main problem instead of a error in design or manufacturing.
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Old 09-12-2015, 07:08   #278
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by jmaja View Post
It is quite different story when this happens to a almost new yacht model, which is still built and even many under construction/ordered or just released. You must do something about it. First 40.7 was a long time ago out of production and known to be able to handle normal sailing conditions. Also it was known that an official report will be made due to loss of lives. That report didn't find anything badly wrong in the way the boat was designed and made. Bavaria 42 Match was more comparable to this case as it was a new model. Bavaria didn't handle it well in the beginning, but quite soon it released the keel construction and how it will be enhanced in all Bavaria 38 and 42 Matches at the cost of Bavaria. I haven't heard about any keel problems with any of the Match series since then. Both Oyster and Bavaria started by denial and speculations about grounding as the main problem instead of a error in design or manufacturing.
The MAIB report into Cheeki Rafiki found that "light" groundings had caused significant weakenings and delamination in an astonishing proportion of the yachts tested. This means that very many such yachts still sailing are doing so with weakened, and perhaps critically weakened keel structures. This fact is due to the design and build of that particular yacht model, as well as many other similar also by the same marque, as well as others. As such it is clearly an issue which concerns the designer, builder and manufacturer of those yachts!

And the different story has been that this manufacturer has made a statement going better than halfway to admitting responsibility, as well as demonstrating committment to fixing any issues which have arisen therefrom. Oyster has demonstrated a commitment to its owners, even those who have purchased their craft at 5th and 6th or more hand, 25 or 30 years after initial sale, which puts them in an entirely different category of service to Beneteau, which, as you correctly suggest (perhaps without meaning to!) appears to wash its hands of any responsibiility for or interest in its craft as soon as they are out of the saleroom, and certainly as soon as they are no longer defineable as "brand new".
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Old 09-12-2015, 07:36   #279
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Really... Do you have any idea of how much it costs to haul out two 85ft yachts at the STP shipyard in Palma Mallorca, and take them out of commission for several months while an investigation and repairs are taking place? While at the same time conducting and financing a salvage operation for a sunken 90ft yacht.
Has Oyster paid and conducted the investigations and salvaging of Polina Star? Two of the fixed 825's have already sailed ARC five months after Polistar Star sank. Surely they weren't out of comission for several months.
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Old 09-12-2015, 08:22   #280
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
The MAIB report into Cheeki Rafiki found that "light" groundings had caused significant weakenings and delamination in an astonishing proportion of the yachts tested. This means that very many such yachts still sailing are doing so with weakened, and perhaps critically weakened keel structures. This fact is due to the design and build of that particular yacht model, as well as many other similar also by the same marque, as well as others. As such it is clearly an issue which concerns the designer, builder and manufacturer of those yachts!
The MAIB report doesn't mention any delamination. It talks about matrix detachment. The matrix is glued and also compressed by the keel bolts. Matrix detachment happens due to grounding and Beneteau has provided a guide how to repair that. Cheeki Rafiki had had several groundings and only once was the keel structure repaired and even then without removing the keel, which I find almost criminal. Every yacht will fail due to grounding and at least around here removing the keel and inspecting the structure is the first thing to do after a grounding that has or may have caused damage. Cheeki Rafiki had had several groundings even since the last repair. If boat owners are stupid enough not to inspect and repair their boats after groundings, I don't really see that the boat yard should be blaimed. One can argue that 40.7 is damaged "too easily" by a "light grounding", but I don't see any evidence that a 40.7 could be considered risky as new or as well repaired regarding sailing without groundings or strenght to tolerate one grounding without an immediate risk of sinking.
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Old 09-12-2015, 08:55   #281
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by jmaja View Post
The MAIB report doesn't mention any delamination. It talks about matrix detachment. The matrix is glued and also compressed by the keel bolts. Matrix detachment happens due to grounding and Beneteau has provided a guide how to repair that. Cheeki Rafiki had had several groundings and only once was the keel structure repaired and even then without removing the keel, which I find almost criminal. Every yacht will fail due to grounding and at least around here removing the keel and inspecting the structure is the first thing to do after a grounding that has or may have caused damage. Cheeki Rafiki had had several groundings even since the last repair. If boat owners are stupid enough not to inspect and repair their boats after groundings, I don't really see that the boat yard should be blaimed. One can argue that 40.7 is damaged "too easily" by a "light grounding", but I don't see any evidence that a 40.7 could be considered risky as new or as well repaired regarding sailing without groundings or strenght to tolerate one grounding without an immediate risk of sinking.
Well the matrix essentially forms a laminate with the hull, with bonding, frankly, but if you want to call it debonding then ok. As to your statement that "every yacht will fail due to grounding" this is disingenuous and almost ridiculous. There are very many yachts out there which are designed to be heavily and repeatedly grounded without much damage or none at all, safely to continue a long voyage and many more years of use, and that includes many Oysters. I have not heard of much Beneteau follow up or any general advisories put out by them following that disaster and the really damning MAIB report. I am beginning to think you work for Beneteau…

As to being repairable… there are many professionals, such as Minaret, who have discussed this at length. The repair to such debonding is actually very hard, very expensive, and very involved. This has been discussed extensively (and frankly conclusively) elsewhere on CF. Has Beneteau put out a general advisory to all owners of 40.7s? Has it made any effort whatsoever to identify them and warn them and those others who are sailing similarly constructed vessels of the dangers of "light" groundings to their hulls, or the difficulty inherent in examination to determine the extent of the damage? Have they accepted any form of responsibility or even attempted to advise those who sail their craft that they may be at risk of their lives due to the way in which the matrix tends to mask potentially critical hull failures and weakenings due to matrix debonding? In this case a single failure, with three hulls built in total has resulted in a statement from the company which essentially admits or comes close to doing so that there was a build fault with the model in question as well as a stated comittment to abandoning a "process" which may have lead to the disaster. What comparable response to the fatal failure of CR has there been from Beneteau? And you seek to beat Oyster with the same stick?
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:01   #282
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Re: Oyster Problems?

We bought our Oyster 435 after experiencing two expensive failures of the keel/hull joint on our previous Moody 346 within the space of three years. Amongst the other attractions of the 435 was that it boasted an encapsulated keel, now a rarity among modern cruising boats.

The brokers told us at the time that although a hugely successful model – with production approaching three figures – the net profit had dwindled to almost nothing by the end of production.

The publicity material at the time boasted how 'grounding is permitted' and even offered a sacrificial shoe on the bottom of the keel as an optional extra.

Ahhh, those were the days…

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Old 09-12-2015, 11:53   #283
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
The MAIB report into Cheeki Rafiki found that "light" groundings had caused significant weakenings and delamination in an astonishing proportion of the yachts tested. This means that very many such yachts still sailing are doing so with weakened, and perhaps critically weakened keel structures. This fact is due to the design and build of that particular yacht model, as well as many other similar also by the same marque, as well as others. As such it is clearly an issue which concerns the designer, builder and manufacturer of those yachts!
....
We should maintain some rigor on this: They did not test any yacht. They visited 5 First 40.7 (among about 600) and the ones they had visited were not taken at random but were visited because they were for repair after being grounded. Another boat was visited, presumably because it was for being repaired. This is completely different of what you are saying. You don't know if the groundings on those boats were light or strong and you don't know how many boats were grounded and from them how many were damaged.

"MAIB inspectors visited four Beneteau First 40.7 yachts that had all suffered detachments of their matrix in bays around the aft end of the keel as a result of grounding. ...One further Beneteau First 40.7 yacht was visited, which showed signs of matrix detachment in the forward and aft sections."

There are not 600 Oysters 825 sailing for more than 10 years with two having lost the keel after having the keel structure damage on consequence of groundings or related with bad maintenance on the keel (not tight keel bolts).

We are talking about a boat that was built in 3 or 4 exemplaires and about one of them having lost the keel after 1 year without ever being grounded and having the keel bolts tighten by Oyster 6 months ago.

It is not the same thing, not by a long shot.
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Old 09-12-2015, 12:15   #284
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Well the matrix essentially forms a laminate with the hull, with bonding, frankly, but if you want to call it debonding then ok. As to your statement that "every yacht will fail due to grounding" this is disingenuous and almost ridiculous. There are very many yachts out there which are designed to be heavily and repeatedly grounded without much damage or none at all, safely to continue a long voyage and many more years of use, and that includes many Oysters.
It was the MAIB report that called it matrix detachment. Delamination is something else.

We have a lot of grounds and groundings here. I bet you have hard time finding a yacht here that has been sailed for a longer time (say +10 years) and has never had a structural repair due to grounding. Well there are those, but only with long keel and shallow draft. Many Swans (including S&S models), Hallberg Rassy's etc have been repaired. I don't know any Oysters around here and I have no idea what they used to be like.

Yes all boats can survive a very light grounding, some a bit harder one and some quite hard, but no modern boat can survive a bad grounding without structural damage. And most importantly whatever boat you have you must inspect it after grounding it.

I find a huge different between a 8 year old heavily used boat loosing its keel after several groundings in heavy weather compared to one year old boat loosing its keel and very big part of the hull without any evidence of a single grounding and in rather light conditions.
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Old 09-12-2015, 13:31   #285
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Both boats have something in common, they have catastrophic keel failures, both with a weak point in the construction , if you don't see the weakness in the 40,7 you are blind, honestly if you cant even touch the ground with the 40,7 at the risk to break the glue between the hull and the grid liner then the boat is weak.... througbolting a slim keel to a hollow thin grid liner is just playing dumb.....
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