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Old 01-12-2015, 12:32   #196
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Ok Pol, as usual, clear as mud.....
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Old 01-12-2015, 12:50   #197
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Ok Pol, as usual, clear as mud.....
Sorry if I cannot make it sufficiently clear for you to understand. Maybe with a picture? What modern performance cruisers use is typically something similar to this:

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Old 01-12-2015, 12:54   #198
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Re: Oyster Problems?

I repet:I'm not Eric Tabarly, but I have sailed on many kind of boat, racing and cruising, and I have sailed 10000 miles on the 825....she is not fast, I know they say that is a fast cruiser, but they told so many funny things.......and if you should spend like me some months working in that shipyard you would agree with me that their target was not to build a light boat, if they did some mistake during the building, for sure they didn't do it trying to build a fast boat.
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Old 01-12-2015, 12:59   #199
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Re: Oyster Problems?

That's something, but the only one using it as far I know is X yachts...
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Old 01-12-2015, 13:06   #200
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Alessiocannoni View Post
I repet:I'm not Eric Tabarly, but I have sailed on many kind of boat, racing and cruising, and I have sailed 10000 miles on the 825....she is not fast, . . .
A boat with an 80' waterline, and SA/D of 120 is -- "not fast"?

Compared to what?
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Old 01-12-2015, 13:08   #201
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
That's something, but the only one using it as far I know is X yachts...
Yes, I know you have seen the reference on the photo but you are mistaken. there several production performance cruisers using similar systems: some use for the grid steel, some use carbon and some use reinforced composite sometimes with carbon.
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Old 01-12-2015, 13:17   #202
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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I repet:I'm not Eric Tabarly, but I have sailed on many kind of boat, racing and cruising, and I have sailed 10000 miles on the 825....she is not fast, I know they say that is a fast cruiser, but they told so many funny things.......and if you should spend like me some months working in that shipyard you would agree with me that their target was not to build a light boat, if they did some mistake during the building, for sure they didn't do it trying to build a fast boat.
All is relative. the 825 on the ARC is proving to be a fast boat. He is way ahead of other big fast performance cruisers like an Advanced80 or a BD80
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I understand what you mean, it is not fast as a Shipman or a wally but the D/L indicates a fast boat.

The problem here seems to be that on a fast performance boat there are lots of weight savings on the furniture on the keel type and keel structure, on the careful way the boat is built while on the Oyster the weight savings seem to have been made on the wrong places
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Old 01-12-2015, 13:39   #203
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Re: Oyster Problems?

These are side issues to the construction failures, I admit. However, having just read the posts from overnight, and encountering where poiu wrote that there are "nice" guys at Oyster, I had to wonder about nice guys doing un-nice acts. I mean, trying to scapegoat Alessioconnoni by slander or libel is execrable! The man has industry respect and a livelihood at stake. It is the sort of behavior perpetrated upon less wealthy people by more wealthy groups, and IMO is detestable, not at all nice.

ALESSIOCONNONI, where I grew up, slander (defamation by spoken word) and libel (defamation in writing) are both illegal. Perhaps they are also in the country where it took place, or your country of residence. If you have not already consulted an attorney, I'm thinking you need a whole strategy to combat what is afoot here. Just one of many issues is to protect all the evidence you have of their malfeasance.

What a mess!
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Old 01-12-2015, 14:42   #204
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
These are side issues to the construction failures, I admit. However, having just read the posts from overnight, and encountering where poiu wrote that there are "nice" guys at Oyster, I had to wonder about nice guys doing un-nice acts. I mean, trying to scapegoat Alessioconnoni by slander or libel is execrable! The man has industry respect and a livelihood at stake. It is the sort of behavior perpetrated upon less wealthy people by more wealthy groups, and IMO is detestable, not at all nice.

ALESSIOCONNONI, where I grew up, slander (defamation by spoken word) and libel (defamation in writing) are both illegal. Perhaps they are also in the country where it took place, or your country of residence. If you have not already consulted an attorney, I'm thinking you need a whole strategy to combat what is afoot here. Just one of many issues is to protect all the evidence you have of their malfeasance.

What a mess!
thanks for your comprehension! and for your tip!
enyway I think that competence and honesty in long terms give good results.
I don't think that the way the Oyster CEO is using to manage the claim will help the shipyard's reputation.
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Old 01-12-2015, 14:57   #205
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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You are misunderstanding what I said, I did not said that on an heavy boat a stub keel cannot be stronger. I only raised doubts about the suitability of that type of design for a performance light boat.

How do you want to use the same amount of material? One is directed bolted to the hull and to a structure, that on performance boats sometimes is on carbon or steel, on the other you have a primarily structure that distributes loads by the hull and a secondary one that links that one the the keel and Ballast, The secondary one has to be massively strong as well as the links between the first and second since we are not talking about steel bolts but about composite.

A composite material (not carbon) to have the same resistance of steel has to be heavier.
For a high performance boat, you will want as slim as possible and maybe to make compromises with strength to favour performance, so a steel keel onto strong hull scantlings, maybe that would have to be a steel grid.

I don't know why you think composite materials are heavier than steel for the same strength. They aren't typically, unless you compare junk grade fibreglass with an expensive high tensile steel. This is an important reason why most of our boats are made of fibreglass and not steel.
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Old 01-12-2015, 15:08   #206
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
For a high performance boat, you will want as slim as possible and maybe to make compromises with strength to favour performance, so a steel keel onto strong hull scantlings, maybe that would have to be a steel grid.

I don't know why you think composite materials are heavier than steel for the same strength. They aren't typically, unless you compare junk grade fibreglass with an expensive high tensile steel. This is an important reason why most of our boats are made of fibreglass and not steel.
Its a bunch of contradictions
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Old 01-12-2015, 15:35   #207
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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For a high performance boat, you will want as slim as possible and maybe to make compromises with strength to favour performance, so a steel keel onto strong hull scantlings, maybe that would have to be a steel grid.

I don't know why you think composite materials are heavier than steel for the same strength. They aren't typically, unless you compare junk grade fibreglass with an expensive high tensile steel. This is an important reason why most of our boats are made of fibreglass and not steel.
No, not necessary steel, Carbon is now favored on top brands for the keel structure due to the danger rust can represent on a mixed structure.

Off course the bolts on a keel are made of high tensile steel. I was compared the work they perform and their weight supporting a keel with the needed composite to hold the stub to the hull and upper structure and take in account that anyway other bolts are needed to connect the stub with the keel/keel ballast, probably with a similar weight.

Yes, the stub/keel it can be a very solid system but the composite links between the stub and the keel structure have to be massive to equal the holding power of several high tensile bolts.

Regarding compromises on strength it may not be the case, as we see on this Oyster example

Look for instance at some Open 60 that have circumnavigated the world racing 5 or 6 times with in between a huge number of Atlantic crossings and probably more NM made than any other boat and that after 20 years are still strong and seaworthy. The forces that they had experienced not only facing some of the worst seas but sailing at double digit speeds, have little in common with the ones that are experienced by a cruising boat.

As I said previously performance boats can be very strong, but they are necessarily more expensive to build than heavier boats with a similar strength and a similar quality interior.
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Old 01-12-2015, 16:18   #208
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
These are side issues to the construction failures, I admit. However, having just read the posts from overnight, and encountering where poiu wrote that there are "nice" guys at Oyster, I had to wonder about nice guys doing un-nice acts. I mean, trying to scapegoat Alessioconnoni by slander or libel is execrable! The man has industry respect and a livelihood at stake. It is the sort of behavior perpetrated upon less wealthy people by more wealthy groups, and IMO is detestable, not at all nice.

ALESSIOCONNONI, where I grew up, slander (defamation by spoken word) and libel (defamation in writing) are both illegal. Perhaps they are also in the country where it took place, or your country of residence. If you have not already consulted an attorney, I'm thinking you need a whole strategy to combat what is afoot here. Just one of many issues is to protect all the evidence you have of their malfeasance.

What a mess!

+1... I'm confident about a compensation for Alessio, in another forum they talk about electricity and that pesky electric main entrance door , the DC AC fail first and the door don't have a backup to open it in case of emergency,, WTF is that? then another question is the CE A rating in this case like in others where a European boat brand get involved in a accident ,, definitely something is really wrong right there ,,

Some questions coming from a Spanish forum like ,,
For what is worth all those certifying companies and / or its inspectors?
What are the real skills that have some engineers "highly qualified.
Where is the ethics of a supposed great brand and all of its employees?

Like you say, what a mess....
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Old 01-12-2015, 16:46   #209
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Re: Oyster Problems?

#1, never assume because you pay a lot, you get a lot.
#2 Thus , hopefully, the debate about hull liners being fine, and their bonding to the hull ends here!
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Old 01-12-2015, 17:26   #210
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Certainly not. Russian boat-building is very expensive and poor quality. The Russians could outsource to Switzerland and still save money

Russians are consumers, not producers, in this market.

But they brew good diesel ehh?
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