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Old 30-11-2015, 16:23   #151
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
In some earlier posts, I've seen some references made to "Russia"... Now, I see the diagram posted appears to be in Russian...

Was this work actually done in Russia, or farmed out to a Russian subcontractor?
I have no idea.... the link..Ойстер. На дне.
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Old 30-11-2015, 17:08   #152
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
... now the question to me is if the rest of Oysters around here and there are made like this one.....
Some of the rest. Maybe. Maybe not.

There are also some very old Oysters around. They seem VERY sturdy: no sign nor any rumours of alike damage.

Then there are the newer Oysters. I know of at least one failure of possibly similar origin (laminate too dry, or to thin). Not in the keel area, still potentially very hazardous.

We may hear more alike news soon. Or none. If I had a faulty Oyster, (or any other very expensive faulty boat) I would never broadcast my trouble. I would claim the boat is a steal and I am just upgrading to a newer bigger model.

If this keel design is NOT one off, I would recall off of them right now. As we can see, there has been no such recall. Some very similar boats are sailing very hard at the head of ARC fleet right now. Apparently, no worries by their owners. Implied one off.

I bet we will never know. Unless a similar accident repeats. Touch wood.

As is, only unbiased, govt investigation could give us some insight, but as far as I know, there is no such investigation under way.

b.
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Old 30-11-2015, 17:31   #153
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I have no idea.... the link..Ойстер. На дне.
Thanks for that link, incredible ...
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Old 30-11-2015, 18:03   #154
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
In some earlier posts, I've seen some references made to "Russia"... Now, I see the diagram posted appears to be in Russian...

Was this work actually done in Russia, or farmed out to a Russian subcontractor?
The owner is Russian and I bet those drawings are from the Russian sister magazine of yach.de. Not any Russian subcontractors that I know off.

to be fair 1.5cm seems not to be on the keel area but on the side of the bottom. On the keel area it seems to be a bit thicker...but not much more.

I am impressed with all that fiber without resin and not in a positive way. Probably this happened not only due to a single problem but to several.

There are two 825 being sailed hard on the ARC, one particularly hard and I really hope this is a single mistake.

If the boats have a problem it does not mean that they will break right away. This one crossed the Atlantic and come back without losing the keel...but it probably mean that an accident will happen sometime in the future.

I really believe that the best Oyster can do with this is to assume responsibilities and make public the surveyors findings making the repairs needed on the boats that need to be repaired, if it is the case.

Regarding all this coming to public I am very surprised. They should have given a new boat to the owner and brought this one to a well guarded warehouse to be surveyed

This probably means that Oyster is playing all this in a very dumb way, not giving all warranties to the owner regarding having a new boat, and he should have it anyway since the hull is under warranty. The owner showing all this and posting photos on magazines and forums can only mean that he is very pissed with Oyster's attitude regarding all this. Am I right Alessi?

Let's hope Oyster can survive all this.
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Old 30-11-2015, 18:16   #155
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Some of the rest. Maybe. Maybe not.

There are also some very old Oysters around. They seem VERY sturdy: no sign nor any rumours of alike damage.

Then there are the newer Oysters. I know of at least one failure of possibly similar origin (laminate too dry, or to thin). Not in the keel area, still potentially very hazardous.

We may hear more alike news soon. Or none. If I had a faulty Oyster, (or any other very expensive faulty boat) I would never broadcast my trouble. I would claim the boat is a steal and I am just upgrading to a newer bigger model.

If this keel design is NOT one off, I would recall off of them right now. As we can see, there has been no such recall. Some very similar boats are sailing very hard at the head of ARC fleet right now. Apparently, no worries by their owners. Implied one off.

I bet we will never know. Unless a similar accident repeats. Touch wood.

As is, only unbiased, govt investigation could give us some insight, but as far as I know, there is no such investigation under way.

b.
Agree on all points. Except perhaps the "we will never know" bit… though I am sure there will be an attempt at cover up or corporate damage mitigation.

There is no doubt that earlier generation Oysters, built in the Matthews era, are superb and extraordinarily strong boats. The design "features" of this model show a radical shift away from Oyster design philosophy, towards a cheaper, more profitable "cruiser racer" style which so dominates the market. The new owners (a financial institution as I recall, hedge fund or similar?) appear more interested in money than in quality, going on this evidence. I hope this is not brand wide. But have no doubt about the earlier models. They are built like magnificent tanks.
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Old 30-11-2015, 18:20   #156
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Well this is something worth to see by yourself and judge by yourself.... I cant believe how Oyster , a reputable yacht builder can make this cascade of mistakes, this is a $$$$$$ boat build like a piece of crap... I try to convice myself that this can be just a isolated mistake from the production line but to be honest I have no idea and I hope no other Oyster 825 are build like this one, the list of offenders is huge ,,,starting for those insane criminals 15 mm of laminate thicknes around the keel and hull bottom and following with wide areas of no resin at all in the laminate, 5 mm in the keel stub partitions , cant belive that!! and a funny and long aft keel bolt.... in sum, this boat should never have left the factory ... now the question to me is if the rest of Oysters around here and there are made like this one.....
Just incredible. A total departure from previous Oyster build quality and design philosophy. Appalling. And yes, WTF is that aft keel bolt about? Looks almost like the designer realised the structure wasn't going to be strong enough and threw it in in a rather strange attempt to anchor the keel more firmly. I mean a bolt of that length with so much unsupported would apply and IMMENSE leverage to its terminal washers/plates and nut. I just cannot see how it was meant to perform? And those laminate thicknesses are an absolute joke. Not a funny one.
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Old 30-11-2015, 18:50   #157
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Thanks for that link, incredible ...
Yes, this was the magazine I was talking about, the sister oy Yacht.de, Yacht Russia and as well as Yacht.de a very good magzine. They share articles and boat tests.
Ойстер. На дне.

All that are interested on this thread should read that article. It is in Russian but the translation makes it understable and it is a very good article.

As a side point I have been sayng that European boat magazines are not like most American magazines and that among European ones Yacht.de is among my favorites. Can someone imagine a major American sail magazine doing an article like that, for example about the Gunboat problems or at the time about the many problems that ended up Tartan?

The reason for that is that European magazines live less on publicity than American ones. Go for example to Zinio and see how much it costs an annual subscription of sail magazine and see how much it will cost the subscription of an European sail magazine. Most of the American's ones are payed by publicity and that's why the price is so different and that's what make them more "compromised" by boat builder's interests.
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Old 30-11-2015, 18:57   #158
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
... The design "features" of this model show a radical shift away from Oyster design philosophy, towards a cheaper, more profitable "cruiser racer" style which so dominates the market. ...
Some confusion here. Yes the market, and that means the ones that have the money for big yachts, prefer performance yachts but performance yachts were never cheaper than heavier boats, quite the contrary, they are more expensive for the simple reason that for building lighter and strong you have to build with more quality and with better materials...and I am not sure it was the case with Oyster, with exception of the interior
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Old 30-11-2015, 19:07   #159
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Just incredible. A total departure from previous Oyster build quality and design philosophy. Appalling. And yes, WTF is that aft keel bolt about? Looks almost like the designer realised the structure wasn't going to be strong enough and threw it in in a rather strange attempt to anchor the keel more firmly. I mean a bolt of that length with so much unsupported would apply and IMMENSE leverage to its terminal washers/plates and nut. I just cannot see how it was meant to perform? And those laminate thicknesses are an absolute joke. Not a funny one.
That keel design is used in many quality yachts and certified by the best certifying bodies. The problem is not the design but the way it was built, specially in what concerns the thickness of the fiberglass.

Off course a design also specifies the correct amount of composite and the thickness and I don't know if in what regards that the design is appropriated or not, I am talking about the design with a single strong attachment up besides the others that rely on the keel structure and connect the stub to the keel.
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Old 30-11-2015, 19:14   #160
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Solid???????if you mean single skin, yes!
Sorry, I'm not good in English; in Italian "solido" means something that's difficult to break......
Solido... Bravo!

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Old 30-11-2015, 19:33   #161
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Great example of what can happen with very large infusion setups, something I've noted with infused boats many times before, especially in cases where they are infusing both core and laminate at the same time. It can be very difficult to control resin ratio, especially in areas of the mold where complex geometry requires resin to be infused around tight curves and corners, like a keel. As someone who has done a great deal of carbon vacuum bagging in large high tech construction, I often note in factory production infusion pics the lack of gauging in the bag, and some of the more modern closed mold methods actually preclude thorough gauging. On a hand built high quality vacuum epoxy layup, I would never throw down a bag that large without not just sucker feet but gauges as well at a much higher frequency than I've ever seen in an infusion setting, for obvious reasons. This means the only way to determine actual bag pressure at any given point is by "pinch test", a wholly unsatisfactory method if much of the mold can't even be reached while in wet layup. This often results in very rich laminates, or very dry laminates. I'd love to field burn test hull samples from this boat; I'm sure you'd find the resin ratio's all over the place. Some of the more modern infusion setups are a huge gamble; when you pull the trigger and catalyze and flip on the pumps, everything better go just right in a remarkably short period of time, or you will end with less than ideal results. I'm sure they don't like to eat the possible resulting huge materials losses. Of course, in this case, it would have helped if there had been some laminate in there to begin with! And no, I wouldn't think the designer would be able to escape any responsibility here. This is what happens when a high quality product name gets sold out. If people don't get wise to this continuing trend and bother to educate themselves on the basics of yacht construction before buying a yacht, before long all we will have left is this sort of thing and the full custom route. People would be better off going back to home builds like in the 60's and 70's, rather than buying from a major production builder today. Of course, no one has that sort of time or energy any more...
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Old 30-11-2015, 19:40   #162
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Re: Oyster Problems?

On another site, Smackdaddy has a word or two about this keel falling off an Oyster.
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Old 30-11-2015, 20:07   #163
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Re: Oyster Problems?

Wow.. Thought my Macgregor was bad... No oysters for me unles on the half shell. Lol

Use expoxy resin! Trust me you'll thank me!
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Old 30-11-2015, 22:15   #164
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Curious Sailor View Post
Wow.. Thought my Macgregor was bad... No oysters for me unles on the half shell. Lol

Use expoxy resin! Trust me you'll thank me!
Why? Were you in the market for a 90ft Oyster?

Macgregor 22 up to a 90ft yacht.... that's quite the move up. You might want to make it in smaller steps.
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Old 30-11-2015, 22:30   #165
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Re: Oyster Problems?

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Originally Posted by Curious Sailor View Post
Wow.. Thought my Macgregor was bad... No oysters for me unles on the half shell. Lol

Use expoxy resin! Trust me you'll thank me!
Perhaps you will educate us and tell us why we should trust you on this or any other subject. You sure haven't demonstrated any expertise as of y et.

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