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Old 08-04-2015, 09:18   #16
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

I believe that Godwins law only referred to Hitler and Nazism. not Ghengas Khan.
I could be wrong. According to my wife I always am.
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Old 08-04-2015, 09:22   #17
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Killam View Post
I believe that Godwins law only referred to Hitler and Nazism. not Ghengas Khan.
I could be wrong. According to my wife I always am.

===One of the few things Hitler did right, legalize all drugs, give them away to anybody that wanted them, 1/3 killed themselves, 1/3 gave the stuff up, and 1/3 continued to use responsibly === (jheldatksuedu @9:43)

Just sayin...
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Old 08-04-2015, 09:32   #18
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

Before writing Mexico off your list of places to visit, it would be well to Google:
Mexico Travel Warning in Perspective - Baja Insider
The author puts it in the perspective of one who lives there and not interested in choosing his "headlines" based “if it bleeds, it leads."

It might also be advantageous to read the "Mexico News Daily" regarding
"16 police dead after attacks in Jalisco”


As for the war on drugs, making them all legal will provide the possibility of creating more addicts which can still be a burden on society. On the other hand, if people find that they are addicted as a result of buying drugs, how about making them available legally at licensed establishments? This won’t solve the problem, any more than liquor stores control the number of alcoholics, but it should reduce the crimes both here and abroad that are drug related.

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Old 08-04-2015, 09:39   #19
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

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Originally Posted by crazyoldboatguy View Post
===One of the few things Hitler did right, legalize all drugs, give them away to anybody that wanted them, 1/3 killed themselves, 1/3 gave the stuff up, and 1/3 continued to use responsibly
Oh, yeah, there is the answer; give all of the drug users (and prospective drug users) anything they want. When that happens we are most certainly circling the drain.....
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Old 08-04-2015, 09:54   #20
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

It's funny how we as society refuse to accept reality and try to reinvent the wheel each time we think it needs to be reinvented. We already have decades and decades' worth of experience of countries legalizing all kinds of drugs as well as historical data from the time before most drugs were illegal. And all of this data point to the fact that other than an influx of users from prohibition countries into a nonprohibition area there was never an appreciable explosion of drug use among the general population.

Meaning that those who want to use drugs will find a way to do so regardless of their lawfulness and those who do not use drugs will not use them if you put drugs in front of them for free. So once drugs are legalaized worldwide there would not be 1) any expolosion of their use by local population nor 2) any significant movement from a prohibition countries to nonprohibition ones.

And IMO the most powerful argument for legalizing all drugs is this: we cannot have a free society as long as we control other peoples' bodies by force. Be it drug use, abortion, judicial murder, etc.
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:06   #21
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

Thank you Island Time for sharing in such a clear and calm manner. I accept your logic and believe eliminating the criminality and instead dealing with the drug problem medically, spiritually and psychologically would produce the positive result we all hope for.
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:13   #22
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

I certainly don't have a problem with decriminalizing, or legalizing, most drugs but to "give them away to anybody that wanted them" is over the top.

Maybe the way to go would be to legalize drugs but make committing a crime while under the influence of drugs to be similar to the way some states punish crimes committed using deadly weapons. Quite frankly I wouldn't mind adding that to crimes committed while under the influence of alcohol either......
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:53   #23
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

This is a tough debate - legalize or criminalize. It is easy to just say we should legalize drugs. Which ones? Just pot? All of them? If one is to take the side that folks are gonna get whatever drug they want no matter what, then a partial legalization program will only shift the focus of the drug cartels, etc. Legalize all of them? Wow - hard to see any group pushing (sorry) for legalization of crystal meth, for instance. The devastation that drug wreaks on users is painful to watch. In fact, there are many former drug users who are quick to say that it was getting arrested, convicted and sentenced to a long enough prison term that allowed them to get their **** together. Family members will demand the gov't DO SOMETHING about their loved ones who are destroying themselves. And gov'ts have a hard time resisting the temptation to be everything to everybody. Especially when they get to spend someone else's money.

I could see folks demanding some sort of mandatory drug programs but how that would be different than a prison is beyond me.

I come from a family with addiction issues. I have watched it nearly destroy some - and watched it kill another.

I doubt the cartel members will suddenly become fine, upstanding, taxpayers if drugs are legalized. Just like some folks will use drugs no matter what, some folks commit crimes no matter what. The mafia didn't disappear with the repeal of the Volstead Act. They moved to other vices, hijacking trucks filled with TVs, kidnapping for ransom, control of legalized gambling in Las Vegas - the list is endless.
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:54   #24
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

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Based on your example of 1/3 killing themselves, why don't we just have hit squads that randomly kill 1/3 of the dealers or users. I expect the other 2/3 would be less likely to continue to use drugs. Seems like a simpler solution. Genghis Khan proved that killing 1 will scare 10,000.
You make a good point, but maybe not in the way you intended. From my experience, most drug dealers have a much higher chance of being killed, than of being arrested. But, since the risk of being killed does not stop them from dealing drugs, it follows that the fear of being arrested isn't stopping them either.

Drug abuse and addiction is almost always a symptom of the problem, rather than the problem, (the problem usually being some form of mental illness). But, if you think the war on drugs has been expensive (and fruitless), substitute a war on mental illness and see what that cost (and how effective that is).
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Old 08-04-2015, 11:02   #25
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

Mr. Held says, "One of the few things Hitler did right, legalize all drugs, give them away to anybody that wanted them, 1/3 killed themselves, 1/3 gave the stuff up, and 1/3 continued to use responsibly. But the problem of organized crime disappeared, that's the problem that really negatively affects us. All the crime to get the money to buy the ridiculously expensive drugs. Make it legal, tax it, have legal business dispensing it, etc."

I would sure like to know the source for this. I have read a good bit about that era and have never seen this before. Hitler was a bit of a prude, and I have a hard time with this statement. I'm not talking about the numbers who allegedly offed themselves and so on, just the bald fact that Hitler was supposed to have legalized all drugs.
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Old 08-04-2015, 11:06   #26
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

If you started arresting the bankers that launder the drug money, you might see a curtailment in activity. Legalizing would reduce the violence level on the US side of the border, hard to say what would happen in Mexico as a result.
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Old 08-04-2015, 11:07   #27
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

Quote:
Originally Posted by jheldatksuedu View Post
One of the few things Hitler did right, legalize all drugs, give them away to anybody that wanted them, 1/3 killed themselves, 1/3 gave the stuff up, and 1/3 continued to use responsibly. But the problem of organized crime disappeared,
Wow.

You don't think Hitler & his gang of merry men didn't run the damned drug stuff themselves?

One of the things...???

Name the other "few."

Please.

Autobahn, Volkswagen and trains on time don't count.

What a reach.
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Old 08-04-2015, 11:09   #28
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

There is a big difference with drugs vs other crimes. Drugs have gigantic profits. Pennies to create, hundreds of dollars to sell. Stealing tv's and controlling the shipping docks and concrete trucks is not nearly as profitable, and the government can take more effective action against such crimes.

Legalizing drugs is no silver bullet either, but no doubt making it illegal has been a massive failure and has been the basis to erode just about all our rights, remember now the government can 'arrest' your boat or plane or cash without due process, all in the name of fighting drugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyoldboatguy View Post
This is a tough debate - legalize or criminalize. It is easy to just say we should legalize drugs. Which ones? Just pot? All of them? If one is to take the side that folks are gonna get whatever drug they want no matter what, then a partial legalization program will only shift the focus of the drug cartels, etc. Legalize all of them? Wow - hard to see any group pushing (sorry) for legalization of crystal meth, for instance. The devastation that drug wreaks on users is painful to watch. In fact, there are many former drug users who are quick to say that it was getting arrested, convicted and sentenced to a long enough prison term that allowed them to get their **** together. Family members will demand the gov't DO SOMETHING about their loved ones who are destroying themselves. And gov'ts have a hard time resisting the temptation to be everything to everybody. Especially when they get to spend someone else's money.

I could see folks demanding some sort of mandatory drug programs but how that would be different than a prison is beyond me.

I come from a family with addiction issues. I have watched it nearly destroy some - and watched it kill another.

I doubt the cartel members will suddenly become fine, upstanding, taxpayers if drugs are legalized. Just like some folks will use drugs no matter what, some folks commit crimes no matter what. The mafia didn't disappear with the repeal of the Volstead Act. They moved to other vices, hijacking trucks filled with TVs, kidnapping for ransom, control of legalized gambling in Las Vegas - the list is endless.
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Old 08-04-2015, 11:13   #29
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
If you started arresting the bankers that launder the drug money, you might see a curtailment in activity. Legalizing would reduce the violence level on the US side of the border, hard to say what would happen in Mexico as a result.
One of the things I quickly learned when I lived in Miami, is that it truly is the city that drug money built. Most people down there know it, and are completely okay with it.

A friend of mine works for a guy (named Steve) who owns a large marina in the Miami area. He told me Steve used to work for him in the seventies. They were both boat mechanics at a boatyard. When drug dealers would come in with go-fast that needed middle of the night engine changes right away, and offered huge money to the mechanics to do it for them, he would always tell them no thanks, but Steve would take the money and do it.

He told me he used to think Steve was wrong, but the truth is, now Steve owns a marina, and he works for him.
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Old 08-04-2015, 11:33   #30
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Re: Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

If we ever get the money out of politics we will have laws that make sense, instead of laws that make somebody rich.
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