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Old 11-05-2012, 00:42   #361
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Since homo sapiens existence the mega fauna tended to go extinct immediately after our arrival on a given continent.

It is the rule rather than the exception that humans and life in general will exploit resources into extinction without controls.

In nature those controls are usually geography, environment or predator prey relationships.

Humans are the apex predator so our only controls come from within, laws or cultural traditions. Historically these have not worked out so well.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:11   #362
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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Wow just because I brought up the subject of the huge amount of Crap dumped in the area this fella sailed in and all you folks blamed for the dumping!! The great educated folks who have been studying the south pole area for more years then most of ya have been on the earth!!
Prior to the signing of the Antarctic Treaty and before there was a higher awareness of environmental responsibility, the Antarctic research stations operated much as any other community, with open dumping on land and in the sea. That behavior has long passed and today, the stations operate under very strict rules concerning the environment. All used material is now removed from the continent, even 55 gallon drums of frozen urine...(a clear case of overkill, especially considering how we used the old Rodwell/water supply). Any spill is treated as an emergency response. Even kool aid (used for Hash House Harrier runs) has to be scraped up and removed from the ice. Waste is recycled if possible into a category called Skua named after a notorious sea bird who scavenges from the stations. The blue collar workers who maintain the stations work outside in often horrific weather conditions to sort trash and minimize waste. Trash is sorted in numerous categories such as food waste, plastic, metal, wood, paper, construction debris etc and placed into crates for shipment off-continent. Even the old station from the seventies was completely demolished by crews working through the South Pole winter at temperatures down below minus 100 and removed from the continent.
On the Antarctic peninsula, Old Palmer Station was demolished and the site restored to its natural state. The NSF and the station workers take their responsibilities very seriously.
At Macmurdo, it does look like an old industrial town, but they have made strides at protecting the environment since the signing of the treaty. It is the main hub for USAP activity for the continent and thousands of people pass through there every summer, as well as all of the material for the South Pole modernization project and for all USAP field camps on that side of Antarctica. The folks there have the same responsibility for removing unused and waste material in addition to processing waste from field camps and South Pole Station. A lot of time and effort is spent to reduce the stations impact on the environment. In return, the world gets world class research with projects such as the South Pole Telescope, climate change monitoring, and research into subatomic particles (ICE CUBE) that simply can't be duplicated elsewhere.
The only "dumps" that you will see now are the historic huts at Hut Point in Macmurdo and Cape Evans, where the old staging points for Scott and Shackleton can still be seen as if they left yesterday. It is fascinating to see the old crates and anchors and stuff laying around outside the buildings and the interiors laid out as if they are coming back.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:57   #363
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Tonehjul.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:55   #364
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

Thanks, Ocean Girl and GordMay

Reed1v: You missed my point. I stated that exploring takes a free mind and limitations doesn´t go well with that. That is not the same as saying explores are independent and free from all regulations. Einstein is a good example of thinking out of the box, crossing the commonly accepted borders and widening the conceptual frame of his field. But –as Astrid remarks- the prize can be the kiss of an axe. Intellectually or physically.
I wonder if the present day school system could have taken him that far. I believe kids like him today would be institutionalized and psychiatric diagnosed and deemed unfit for further education.

Andrew Troup: “Exploring” is indeed an interesting word but I prefer to refer to the paradigm in which that word historically has been situated. And I believe that paradigm is changing.

There are no blank spots left on the map to explore in the age of Google Maps but we can –as Reed1v puts it- “re-explore but with something that adds value”. He also (as I see it) equals exploring with adventure to some extent. But is adventure the “added value” he refers to?

Anyway..

To me, exploring springs from personal curiosity about the world. A consequence of our evolving technological, global and highly regulated world is the sensation/feeling of losing personal significance and autonomy. –And it is hard to be curious and committed to a world where you feel like a powerless, impotent spectator. Anyway.. That is my view on the paralyzed indifference we see in the youth today in my country. And that frustrates me.

The consequence –if the above is true- is a future where no individual really think anything can be changed and thus nobody tries. –Thus leaving the political and environmental issues in the hands of the monetary powers. Now I´m thinking about the Chinese “Capitalist-communism”, but that´s another interesting discussion. Parts of the Berserker-concept challenges this development.

I do not endorse the Berserker-concept as such, but acknowledge certain positive elements: He bought a cheap, used boat (Albin Vega, 27ft, as I recall), packed food and simply left to see the world.

The reality may be different. He may be reckless, irresponsible etc. but that is the picture he has conveyed to his generation. “Born free” and all that entails.

Lateral: I do not suggest anarchy and it is not black and white. Nor do I endorse the actions of the Berserk at Antarctica as such. I am, however, concerned that the treaty doesn´t address issues with tourism or commercial use of the content. –To my knowledge that is. And I really, really hope that IceDog is right.

Therefore I believe we have an obligation to question regulations and disrespect them if they do more damage than good. The Berserk-incident can initiate that debate and has raised some very relevant questions about how we approach the world and acquire commitment to that world.


btw: Learned this morning, that the remaining crew of the Berserk and a Maori landed in Norway yesterday evening.

This is not my native tongue, so please ask for clarification if needed.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:27   #365
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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Lateral: I do not suggest anarchy and it is not black and white. Nor do I endorse the actions of the Berserk at Antarctica as such. I am, however, concerned that the treaty doesn´t address issues with tourism or commercial use of the content. –To my knowledge that is. And I really, really hope that IceDog is right.
Why does every part of the world need to be open to tourism and commerce?
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:42   #366
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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Why does every part of the world need to be open to tourism and commerce?
Does it? I would argue that going to "uncultivated" places like the antarctic should take a personal commitment that goes beyond a Platinum Master Card and the nursing of an experienced expedition leader/nanny.
But maybe I am wrong. People may need to see it in order to relate to it.
That is another interesting question to which I don´t know the answer.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:56   #367
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pirate Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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Does it? I would argue that going to "uncultivated" places like the antarctic should take a personal commitment that goes beyond a Platinum Master Card and the nursing of an experienced expedition leader/nanny.
But maybe I am wrong. People may need to see it in order to relate to it.
That is another interesting question to which I don´t know the answer.
the answer is simple. if it makes a profit or keeps a rich person entertained then do it. btw: a platinum master card does not cut it. need a platinum american express or black amex card. they will airlift you out of any jam you get into anywhere on the globe. also get you medical attention anywhere/anytime. cool.

to hearten the disheartened, there are loads of unexplored places on the globe. start with the empty quarter and move northwards through the tropical valleys in the himalayas up through the vast russian steep and onwards into the virtually impassible siberian forests. alternatively all the fiords and sounds along western south america, the vast outback which still is mostly unexplored, and of course the dark congo jungles. and that is just a small bit of a very big apple. and then the quirks. we came across a herd of camels in the sonora desert back in the early sixites. left over from a ww2 experiment. there are suppose to be buried ships near the sea of cortez and strange settlements of white folks along the southern part of the panamanian coastal jungles. so go forth and booty.
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Old 11-05-2012, 14:17   #368
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

There are plenty of genuine 'exploring' opportunities left, as reed suggests.

It is understandable that Jarle would wrap himself in the cloak of an explorer, in order to benefit from 'esteem overspray' from the likes of Nansen and Amundsen.

But it's worth noting that Jarle sailed right past a number of unexplored places, including islands where human feet have never trod, while making his beeline for the most cultivated place in Antarctica.

Even islands in the far south which have been repeatedly landed on, albeit with difficulty, remain largely unexplored. To give an instance, the significant island of Bouvetøya, 'Antarctica in miniature', had at the time of Jarle's recent forays still not been climbed, although it has since.
It was done by very expensive means, funded by large parties of rich clients; how much better to have got there first, relying instead on ingenuity and guile? Like Reinhold Messner's iconic soloing of Everest, his support party/base camp IIRC consisting of one girlfriend.

I personally think it is both premature and empoverishing of the language to change the meaning of the word 'exploring' to make it the same as another perfectly good word which has rightly been advanced above to describe Jarle's activities: adventuring.


Tonehjul argues eloquently and persuasively that we should "question regulations, and disrespect them if they do more damage than good" and I find myself broadly agreeing with him, subject to the definition of damage.

I presume Tonehjul means damage to the common good, rather than to individual 'freedoms'. These two have been forced to compete since the dawn of time, and will continue to do so until we are extinguished.

Jarle's actions tell a different story. Repeatedly he has chosen to disrespect regulations based on their potential damage to his narrow self-interest. Typically, in disrespecting them, he damages the common good.

What's more, he consistently selects regulations to transgress whose enforcement is difficult or weak, rather than challenging regulations which are genuinely problematic to freedoms, as in Chilean waters.

He conceals this from his fanbase by smoke and mirror methods more commonly associated with populist politicians. It seems to me that these methods add considerably to the damage he does to the fabric of the future common good.
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Old 11-05-2012, 16:17   #369
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I personally think it is both premature and empoverishing of the language to change the meaning of the word 'exploring' to make it the same as another perfectly good word which has rightly been advanced above to describe Jarle's activities: adventuring.
Excellent and well said. You have really distilled, for me anyway, the crux of the issue. By wrapping himself in the flag of exploring he attempts to justify actions that are unjustifiable. Whether we like it or not when we are born we are born into a social contract of social responsibility. Even though we are technically free to yell fire in a crowded theatre our unspoken social contract with our fellows dictates that we must weigh the needs of those around us when making our decisions and at the point that are actions are doing more harm than good than responsible adults stop and revaluate thier path. Only children carry on acting out...real explorers didnt come against this social contract as they were exploring empty frontiers, and if exploeres did encounter other civilizations they had two choices, adapt to the new social contracts of that new society....or conquer them
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Old 18-09-2012, 12:16   #370
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

The summer cruising season in the south is coming up . . . any news from Norway about Jarle's possible prosecution, or if he is going to head back south? Is his vessel is still down there somewhere?
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Old 18-09-2012, 12:59   #371
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

No, he has not been in media up here for some time.
So we just have to wait and se what he is up to.
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Old 03-12-2012, 21:22   #372
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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Is his vessel is still down there somewhere?
The boat is right here in Puerto Williams. I helped out with a battery charging today and I think the boat are very nice. I wouldn't a swap

This is some of the last I read about Jarles "official" plans, but that might just be some smoke...?

About Jarles plans, in Norwegian newspaper VG, google translated
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:51   #373
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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Excellent and well said. You have really distilled, for me anyway, the crux of the issue. By wrapping himself in the flag of exploring he attempts to justify actions that are unjustifiable. Whether we like it or not when we are born we are born into a social contract of social responsibility. Even though we are technically free to yell fire in a crowded theatre our unspoken social contract with our fellows dictates that we must weigh the needs of those around us when making our decisions and at the point that are actions are doing more harm than good than responsible adults stop and revaluate thier path. Only children carry on acting out...real explorers didnt come against this social contract as they were exploring empty frontiers, and if exploeres did encounter other civilizations they had two choices, adapt to the new social contracts of that new society....or conquer them
excellent insight. interesting sidelight, french explorers melting into the native cultures they encountered; english and spanish explorers killed and enslaved those they met. still to this day. lets be canadian and enslave eskimoes!!!
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:37   #374
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excellent insight. interesting sidelight, french explorers melting into the native cultures they encountered; english and spanish explorers killed and enslaved those they met. still to this day. lets be canadian and enslave eskimoes!!!
??? Enslave Eskimos?

Btw Eskimo is a derogatory term and they call themselves Inuit. They are not enslaved, though they've received rough treatment on the past, leading to some social problems today.
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:24   #375
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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??? Enslave Eskimos?

Btw Eskimo is a derogatory term and they call themselves Inuit. They are not enslaved, though they've received rough treatment on the past, leading to some social problems today.
years ago, the term "eskimo" was not derogatory. in another forty years, the term "inuit" will probably be considered derogatory as well. their forced movements to do the work of the canadian government, the u.s. military, and various private merchants certainly qualifies as slavery. the complete destruction of their cultures by the government and their absolute denial of their land rights creates conditions equal to if not worse than slavery. even more off the wall, the seizures of their children was/is absolutely inhumane from any civilized perspective nowadays. Farley Mowat has done a lot of research in this issue over the past 50 years.
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