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Old 25-02-2012, 18:03   #226
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
SMS?
Andhoey has withdrawn this claim.
Now that's news to me, where did you come by this information if I may ask?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I can think of two reasons this might be so

1) The nearest SMS cells are as far away as Africa is from Norway (at the Argentine bases on the Antarctic peninsula, or at the bottom of NZ).
My understanding was that the message was sent by satelite phone, otherwise I would tend to agree with you, there would be no reason to have a regular cell phone in Antartica.


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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
more seriously:

2) The message is totally inconsistent with being commanded to leave by a warship under potentially life-threatening circumstances. In other words, it no longer suits his theory (which frankly looks more and more like a classic conspiracy theory).
I've probably misunderstood again, but as far as I know the Berserk left Horseshoe Bay the day before it sank, and at the same time sent a message to Jarle.
Shortly before they left the anchorage they were in contact with the NZ navy ship, and that was the last contact they had with anyone.
Now I completely agree that it is unlikely that they were commanded to leave their anchorage, so they probably did so voluntarily, and from everything I've read Jarle seems to be of the same opinion (unfortunately I do not get NZ radio here), the question is why did they leave.
Being "removed" from the situation I have no firsthand knowledge of what really happened, but it seems you have it all figured out, and had you only sent Jarle an email a few months ago he probably wouldn't have gone back to find an answer to that question, as he could just rely on your experience instead.
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Old 25-02-2012, 18:22   #227
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

adeneo

I'm glad you've come round.

Actually you do have a point.

An email to pretty much anyone at random was approximately as likely to produce reliable answers to the question of what happened to Berserk as sailing back down there, especially the way he has.

But that wouldn't make good reality TV, now, would it?
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Old 25-02-2012, 20:04   #228
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

BTW, Adeneo

The answers to your other questions have been pretty exhaustively explored further up the thread.

For instance several other posters have independently reported from different sources Andhoe's claim that the most probable explanation for the absence was that the yacht had been ordered to sail by HMNZS Wellington.

I was one who heard him say it, as I've mentioned. His voice is rather distinctive, but entirely comprehensible.

The fact that you have neither heard it nor read it, does not seem to add to the sum total of useful information on the thread, so I was at first a little puzzled that you still keep reminding us.

In your defence, it does occur to me that I often have to remind myself that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


As regards the reliability of your sources, I checked what you linked, and thank you for that.

A representative sample:

<<
"I do not think I know someone who has better knowledge of the sailing in these areas than Jarle" says Olsgaard>> who is a close friend of Andhoey, one of two such, who supplied the content for the entire article.

You have clearly taken this as evidence of Andhoey's knowledge, whereas it seems, given the other things he says about the size of the talent pool, that this is more likely to be evidence of Olsgaard's limited circle of acquaintance.

I know of several skippers operating in 'these areas' who had considerably more ice miles under their belt, by the age of five, than Andhoey could have clocked up in his legendary "three months at the age of 19" if he had sailed 24/7.

One of them was conceived at 68 deg south, on a private yacht, in the middle of the Antarctic winter, and delivered without outside assistance (other than a battered copy of the "Ship's Captain's Medical Handbook") on South Georgia.

Last time I saw him was on his way back there, to paddle around South Georgia in a sea kayak.

He was not bothered that a group of kiwis were trying at the same time to be first to circumnavigate by kayak, in the full glare of publicity, and with sponsors.

As far as I recall they successfully finished before he started, but he carried on and did it anyway (a much tougher feat, solo and unsupported), because he was not interested in records or fame.

There are many such people in this particular part of the world who will not ever come to the attention of the media and the general public. The far South is a magnet for those who are comfortable with lack of recognition.

It's a little galling for me (they OTOH couldn't care less) when others, who do court public acclaim, manage to create the impression that they are rather special and somewhat unique. A few of them even end up believing it themselves, their 'groupies' and fans certainly do.

Once again, absence of evidence (of a large talent pool) is not evidence of absence, and the ability to operate Google (and I'm not aiming this specifically at you but at a large chuck of mankind) does not confer any sort of overview of who's out there, and what they're up to.


Andhoey's case however is unprecedented, because as well as 'special' and 'unique', this guy is cultivating a new angle: 'moronic' (to use your word).
If there's one place in the world where even quasi-morons are completely inappropriate, it's Antarctica.

Obviously the guy is no moron, but I'm pretty disgusted that he persistently chooses to act like one, not just on camera, but in his dishonest and irrational dealings with the media, and in his persecutional and combative stance when dealing with authority.

He chooses the mantle of a neo-Viking moron both directly and indirectly for his own exclusive benefit, and to the serious detriment of the future prospects of the serious sailing fraternity referred to above.

At this point I've said everything I know which bears on this issue at least once, have pounded the pulpit more than I'm strictly comfortable doing, ended up less sanguine than I began, the site is misbehaving on both my browsers, and I will accordingly bow out of the discussion while I still have some hair left!
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Old 25-02-2012, 21:22   #229
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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I know of several skippers operating in 'these areas' who had considerably more ice miles under their belt, by the age of five, than Andhoey could have clocked up in his legendary "three months at the age of 19" if he had sailed 24/7.

One of them was conceived at 68 deg south, on a private yacht, in the middle of the Antarctic winter, and delivered without outside assistance (other than a battered copy of the "Ship's Captain's Medical Handbook") on South Georgia.

Last time I saw him was on his way back there, to paddle around South Georgia in a sea kayak.
Dion Poncet? His dad was of course one of the very original and great Antarctic cruising sailors - a French national hero.

I do have to say that I understand some of the sympathy for Jarle. He does get off his ass and gets things done. He does have balls. And I appreciate particularly coming from the Scandinavian 'chop down the tall poppies' culture that the maverick attitude has appeal.

But you can, and many sailors (including dirt poor ones) have, done these sort of adventures while leaving good will and a good role model.

He could take those personal strengths and skills and become a great adventure sailor. An inspiration and a role model. Or he could just do it quietly and competently. But right now he is on the road to throwing it away. Right now he is closing off his own future options (that's his business, but I find it sad) and hindering the options of future cruising sailors (that's all of our business).

He is at a crossroads. I am hoping he decides to grow-up, take responsibility, and show respect to the ice.
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Old 26-02-2012, 01:17   #230
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

Norwegian Nilaya heads out of Arctic - Yahoo! New Zealand News
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Old 26-02-2012, 02:37   #231
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

Hi all,

this is an interesting discussion to follow. I am myself a fan of Jarle, but that does not necessarily mean that I agree with everything he has done to handle this difficult situation.

Still, I find it somewhat annoying that certain persons in this forum seems to be able to work out exactly what happened to the Berserk from sitting at their computer desk, and citing different news stories (that are diverging massively, and often seems to be based on second hand information).


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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
If Jarle Andhoey were a sailor with the experience and judgment proportional to his ambitions, he would not describe Backdoor Bay as a 'safe anchorage' under the conditions forecast. It's a delusional proposition.
Can anyone link me an interview where he describes backdoor bay as a 'safe anchorage' for the night Berserk went down? As far as I have understood it was 'Horseshoe bay'. I just read this sail-world interview Sail-World.com : Andhøy refutes Berserk criticism: 'She was my little floating tank.' where he states the safe anchorage was Horseshoe bay.


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Furthermore he would realise that the most likely scenarios would include some or all of the following:

-- Involuntary exit from Backdoor Bay:

Berserk was blown out of the anchorage. Either they dragged, or the cables parted, or they tried to shift or re-lay when their position became untenable, and could not hold station against the windforce.

This is the overwhelmingly likely scenario, and by not acknowledging this, Jarle loses any semblance of credibility. Anyone who bypasses likely explanations in favour of unlikely ones is no longer using their intellect, but is in the grip of their emotions.
No matter where they anchored up, they seem to have left voluntarily (SMS to Jarle). So the "at my computer desk I figured out what happened" seems to have gone wrong here.


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It appears that the sources you are using to make your judgements are inadequate, and I appreciate that being removed from the situation, you and others siding with Andhoey are forced to make judgments on the basis of mainstream journalism, to whom the issues and context are essentially a closed book.

Essentially their most comfortable role, and perhaps the only one for which they are truly equipped, is as cheerleaders for the fanboys and fangirls. Caveat emptor!
Once again I have to ask you how you have such superior information on the exact circumstances around Berserk going down? All of us make judgements based on what we have read and heard, that includes you. I agree you might have more sailing experience, and better contacts, but direct information on what happened is scarce here..

As a last note I want to refer to the following quote from Jarle in an explorersweb interview (Oceans News Explorersweb - the pioneers checkpoint)

"Me and all families of the Berserk crew wish to express our deepest thanks to Paul Watson and the crew on Steve Irwin, HMS Wellington and all parts that have been assisting the search to try to find the lost Berserkers. "

I guess that pretty much stops the discussions about Jarle being grateful or not towards the NZD rescue operation. That Jarle has raised questions about what happened before Berserk went down does not change the above statement, he is still grateful.
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Old 26-02-2012, 04:14   #232
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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The answers to your other questions have been pretty exhaustively explored further up the thread.

For instance several other posters have independently reported from different sources Andhoe's claim that the most probable explanation for the absence was that the yacht had been ordered to sail by HMNZS Wellington.
I've seen those posts, and I've read similar stories in the media, but I have yet to see anything in the media where Jarle himself is actually blaiming the NZ navy for the accident, as claimed by some on this forum.

There have been speculations in the media that the NZ navy ship might have said something that would make the crew on the Berserk decide to leave their anchorage, and it’s not such a farfetched claim as they were the ones to be in contact with the Berserk last, and shortly after that they for some reason decided to leave Horseshoe bay.

It's unlikely they ordered the Berserk to leave, but the timing sure makes one wonder what exactly was said in the communication between the navy ship and Berserk.

The NZ navy has denied Anhøy's request to see the log, but they have given an unofficial statement to what was being discussed in the communcations with Berserk, but then again I probably haven’t read everything, so if anyone can provide a link to an interview where Jarle actually blaims the navy, other than “I heard it on the radio” it would clear that matter up.

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You have clearly taken this as evidence of Andhoey's knowledge, whereas it seems, given the other things he says about the size of the talent pool, that this is more likely to be evidence of Olsgaard's limited circle of acquaintance.
Olsgaard is a Hells Angel and not really a polar explorer, but he does have the unique experience of sailing with Andhøy thru the North West Passage and half way around the world, and something tells me he knows more about the Berserk and Jarle's skills then you do, even though you seem to think otherwise.
He was also aboard the Berserk before it left for Antarctica and was suppose to be part of the crew (he had a little mishap in Russia and had to go back home, luckily for him).

Your probably right though that he does not know many other sailors, but the fact that you can name a few people with more experience than Jarle, or even a hundred people with more experience than Jarle, does not make him inexperienced, it just makes him part of a very small club of people who actually have some experience from this kind of sailing.
It would be the same as someone claiming you know nothing about boats just because they personally know a few people that know more than you about boats, and when that pool of people is outnumbered by US presidents, you’re probably pretty knowledgeable about boats after all, even though there are others with more knowledge then you.

In my opinion coming up with people who was born on South Georgia, and who probably has more experience than Andhøy and does not care about the media, is not very relevant, and it’s more a case of you showboating your acquaintances than actually having anything to do with Jarle Andhøy’s sailing experience.

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Once again, absence of evidence (of a large talent pool) is not evidence of absence, and the ability to operate Google (and I'm not aiming this specifically at you but at a large chuck of mankind) does not confer any sort of overview of who's out there, and what they're up to.
Most of us don’t have your crystal ball or fantastic insight, and we have to actually read the news to follow this story. I’m actually thoroughly impressed that you know so much more about what happened than everyone else, seeing as I myself live almost next door to Jarle, actually know some of the people involved, and understand everything that is being said and written in both the English and Norwegian media, but still have to rely in great part on what the media is actually reporting and in no way have your amazing skill to just figure it out myself without the use of Google.

Lastly, singaporestrait is absolutely right, you have an amazing number of facts that have been clearly stated in the media completely wrong, everything from places to people, so maybe you should brush up on those Google skills a little bit after all.
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Old 26-02-2012, 09:30   #233
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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Can anyone link me an interview where he describes backdoor bay as a 'safe anchorage' for the night Berserk went down? As far as I have understood it was 'Horseshoe bay'.

This official report, based on the NZ navy log ("4.3 15-22 February 2011
Berserk anchored in Backdoor Bay at Cape Royds")., indicates that Berserk was anchored in backdoor bay the day of the storm. Backdoor bay would have been untenable in strong southerly winds - it is wide open to the south and west. So, with the storm forecast they had (60kts from a southerly direction) any prudent skipper would have left that anchorage. The options would have been to sail around and re-anchor in horseshoe or to try to get to open sea. No-one knows what their intentions were. All we know is that the EPIRB went off 8 miles beyond horseshoe.

If you look at the wind strip chart, the storm winds built extremely quickly. I would speculate, but I agree it is only my speculation, that they left backdoor before the building winds started and communicated to Jarle at that time and felt in good control. It would take a bit over an hour to up anchor and get around to Horseshoe, and I speculate that while they were doing that, the wind suddenly built to storm force and they were driven off and could not get in and re-anchored in horseshoe - which has a quite rocky and difficult bottom to anchor on. That is speculation, but is consistent with the facts as we know them and with normal seamanship procedure, except that they left leaving backdoor too late and may not have expected the wind to rise so sharply.

It does not really matter which anchorage Jarle has said was 'safe', because the plain fact is that neither is a safe all weather anchorage. One is wide open to the south and west and the other wide open to the North and west. The Antarctic pilot says very plainly "there is no safe anchorage in Mcmurdo sound." Both anchorages can have heavy ice forced in by strong winds, which can distroy any vessel, and there is absolutely no escape at all in westerly winds (As both are open to that direction).

if anyone can provide a link to an interview where Jarle actually blaims the navy, other than “I heard it on the radio” it would clear that matter up.

'Viking' still blaming NZ for deaths - article written directly from just one of the interviews where he suggests this. Note "still blaming" and "continues to suggest" and "repeated claims" confirming this is not the only interview where he has made this charge. You can certainly say if you want that the reporter completely misrepresented what Jarle meant in the interview. No-one can read Jarle's mind, the reporter can only report what he says.
.....
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Old 26-02-2012, 11:16   #234
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing





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Old 26-02-2012, 12:43   #235
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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This official report, based on the NZ navy log ("4.3 15-22 February 2011
Berserk anchored in Backdoor Bay at Cape Royds")., indicates that Berserk was anchored in backdoor bay the day of the storm. Backdoor bay would have been untenable in strong southerly winds - it is wide open to the south and west. So, with the storm forecast they had (60kts from a southerly direction) any prudent skipper would have left that anchorage. The options would have been to sail around and re-anchor in horseshoe or to try to get to open sea. No-one knows what their intentions were. All we know is that the EPIRB went off 8 miles beyond horseshoe.
Oddly enough there are different reports on this. In all Norwegian newspapers (and the sail-world interview) Jarle states that the last contact between him and Berserk crew was when he received an sms stating that they were leaving Horseshoe bay (apparently on the 21.st of Feb).
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Old 26-02-2012, 20:57   #236
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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Oddly enough there are different reports on this. In all Norwegian newspapers (and the sail-world interview) Jarle states that the last contact between him and Berserk crew was when he received an sms stating that they were leaving Horseshoe bay (apparently on the 21.st of Feb).
An SMS on the 21st would be odd, as the sinking was on the 22nd. And the NZ navy log of Berserk anchored in Backdoor would make more sense (as in my speculation about events above). It could be that the SMS said 'leaving anchorage' and Jarle just assumed Horseshoe.

Just as an aside, Horseshoe is pretty deep and bad holding, and open to the bigger fetch of the Ross sea so Backdoor would generally have been more comfortable.

But it is really not so important in the big picture regarding Jarle. The main point is that neither anchorage is a safe all weather anchorage. A vessel could not plan to anchor and wait in one place. They would have to be ready to move between the anchorages and to leave entirely in westerly winds or if ice started pushing into the harbours.
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Old 28-02-2012, 12:59   #237
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

Would anyone know what electronic charts Berserk was using around Horseshoe Bay?
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Old 28-02-2012, 14:23   #238
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

First of all, I think "singaporestrait" and "ice" is has the most plausible scenario of what happened to the Berserk.

Then - the motivation for another trip to Antartica for Jarle must have been numerous.

1. To find more information from inspecting the three anchorages.
2. To recover equipment from anchorages.
At three different anchorages the Berserk had made depots with food, fuel and neccessary equipment for survival up to one year for the whole crew in case they needed to let the boat freeze. Also including four quadbikes if I've read the news correctly.
3. To recover the equipment from their land expedition stored at the base.
4. To honour the lost sailors
Jarle is a man of great honour and I'm sure it means a lot to him to be able to give them a last honour.

If you add all this equipment, fuel and more - I would have been interested in getting it back, both for the money, but also to prevent polluting the coastline.

And then.. the way to finance this would be to film it and hope some TV channel would by it when he gets back.
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Old 29-02-2012, 03:14   #239
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

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article written directly from just one of the interviews where he suggests this. Note "still blaming" and "continues to suggest" and "repeated claims" confirming this is not the only interview where he has made this charge. You can certainly say if you want that the reporter completely misrepresented what Jarle meant in the interview. No-one can read Jarle's mind, the reporter can only report what he says.
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For instance several other posters have independently reported from different sources Andhoe's claim that the most probable explanation for the absence was that the yacht had been ordered to sail by HMNZS Wellington.

I was one who heard him say it, as I've mentioned. His voice is rather distinctive, but entirely comprehensible.
I'm guessing this is the interview with Radio NZ previously mentioned?

@buckley - I believe the footage from this expedition is already sold to TV-Norway, who is currently also airing last years expedition every Thursday.
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Old 29-02-2012, 06:19   #240
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Re: Nilaya / Berserk Missing

Andhøy's devotees are quite vocal, but there might not be enough of them for TV Norge to break even on the show? Their viewers will rather watch stuff like celebrities competing to reach the North Cape (71° nord – Norges tøffeste kjendis).
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Would anyone know what electronic charts Berserk was using around Horseshoe Bay?
Also, what sailing guide would he have that claimed that these anchorages were safe all-weather anchorages? Reading an old interview with Andhøy confirms he was using the "Antarctic Pilot", volume 9 of the UK Admiralty sailing directions.
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