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Old 27-02-2011, 06:54   #16
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

I agree with Don. Let's not start blaming the Navy. These deaths are the fault of the pirates 100%. They started the ball rolling. What I do find interesting is the statement that one pirate was killed with a knife. Doesn't sound like the rescuers went in guns blazing but rather made an attempt to keep the gun fire down in a real attempt to save the hostages.
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Old 27-02-2011, 06:59   #17
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

So we are meant to belive the pirates over the navy?


Get real!


JFK was killed by the CIA
Armstrong never walked on the moon
Elvis is still alive
Pirates are right: the US Navy are murderers.



Just get real.
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:01   #18
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorenzo b View Post
Hey Gord, I'll have you know that the adult literacy rate in Louisiana is 60%!
Hey, I resemble that remark!!!
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:04   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas
Let's not not start blaming the Navy!

When it comes right down to it; it's pointless to negotiate with pirates (terrorists). All that does in encourage and reward them!
Firstly governments all over the world routinely negotiate with terrorists despite simultaneously denying it ( see IRA, Hamas ,PLO, Barbary pirates etc ) why because rarely do purely military interventions work.

Secondly why not " blaming" the navy I don't feel we have been told the thruth 're the Quest tragedy. Pirates would not in my view shoot the hostages unless " forced" as it removes their only bargaining chip. I agree with Gord on this it's looks like a botched rescue. But I am sure the navy felt it was necessary to launch an attempt ( possibly before they reached land) president Obama had approved use of force several hours previously.

It is a reminder that in these close quarter hostage situations , armed intervention is a very risky strategy. Would the crew of Quest prefer to be dead or in Somalia. ?

It hasn't worked for the French or now the US, the Brits have decided not to intervene Where hostages are taken.

The solution is preemptive action not post hostage rescue

Dave
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:04   #20
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

More details here ... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/24/wo...s&st=cse&scp=7

NYT source says they were detained, which certainly wasn't the way things were portrayed in earlier reports. My recollection is that the Navy said the FBI was negotiating with the pirates and they opened fire unexpectedly. No mention of detaining the negotiators.

Tellie .... a knife fight gets better press!
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:09   #21
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
So we are meant to belive the pirates over the navy?


Get real!


JFK was killed by the CIA
Armstrong never walked on the moon
Elvis is still alive
Pirates are right: the US Navy are murderers.



Just get real.
I hate to burst your bubble Mark but governments have been know to lie to cover up mistakes. I know its hard to believe but they do. Not saying they did in this case .... not yet.
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:11   #22
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

Something is tying the hands of the world's navies from blowing these f$&#s out of the water before they get to first base. The technology is in place. Everyone knows when these guys are on the water. Someone is telling warships not to shoot. Hmmmmmm now who benefits from the money being taken in by pirates. Follow the money and find out who is behind making fools of the world's navys. There should be and should always have been a "no negotiate" policy. When a boat is hijacked, the choices must be 1. Put your hands up. 2. Get ready to die because we are coming aboard, guns blazing. PERIOD. T'would not be long before piracy stopped completely and civility was restored to the seas. There would be no profit in piracy. PIRACY in the 21st century....please! Get real. Decisions have been made to purposely let this tragedy continue.
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:19   #23
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

Quote:
1. Put your hands up. 2. Get ready to die because we are coming aboard, guns blazing. PERIOD.
Looks like thats exactly what happened in this case. Not particularly effective technique imHo, especially from the hostages' point of view.

Detaining negotiators just sounds super moronic, if it turns out the US navy aren't respecting white flag negotiations they can rest assured they will be the laughing stock of the world.
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:21   #24
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

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Originally Posted by Doodles View Post
I hate to burst your bubble Mark but governments have been know to lie to cover up mistakes. I know its hard to believe but they do. Not saying they did in this case .... not yet.
Not trying to burst any bubbles because governments have been known to cover up mistakes. Many, if not most, times to eventually be found out. But there are far more people who easily fall into the fantasy of everything the government does is a cover up and a conspiracy. Because as you pointed out " it gets better press". Perhaps mostly feeding into the conspriacy fantasies of those that Gord referred to as...well... suffering from educational inefficiencies.
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:22   #25
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
Something is tying the hands of the world's navies from blowing these f$&#s out of the water before they get to first base. The technology is in place. Everyone knows when these guys are on the water. Someone is telling warships not to shoot. Hmmmmmm now who benefits from the money being taken in by pirates. Follow the money and find out who is behind making fools of the world's navys. There should be and should always have been a "no negotiate" policy. When a boat is hijacked, the choices must be 1. Put your hands up. 2. Get ready to die because we are coming aboard, guns blazing. PERIOD. T'would not be long before piracy stopped completely and civility was restored to the seas. There would be no profit in piracy. PIRACY in the 21st century....please! Get real. Decisions have been made to purposely let this tragedy continue.
If you want to know what's tying their hands you should read through this thread, especially Evan's posts. United Nations Resolutions & Piracy
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:24   #26
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

I don’t think that I indicated that I thought this was a “botched” rescue; but (obviously) something went wrong. This was not a perfect operation!
I’m interested in exploring what went wrong, and how such operations could be improved.
I assure you, the US Navy is much more interested than I, in these very same things.
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:24   #27
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
So we are meant to belive the pirates over the navy?
In fact, the Navy is a fantastic example. Just read up on the Gulf of Tonkin incident, manufactured to have an excuse to escalate the Vietnam intervention into a full-blown war. Perhaps ironically, they used pretty much this exact fantasy tale (as below):

Quote:
Then Tuesday morning, with "absolutely no warning," the pirates launched a rocket-propelled grenade at the warship, the USS Sterett, though several Somalis also raised their arms in surrender on the yacht's deck, Fox said.
Thanks to the freedom of information act, we can now read up the official documents from 40 years ago and confirm what peace activists suspected all along: the incident WAS in fact all lies.

By the way, as per CNN:
Quote:
Before two pirate leaders departed the yacht where they held four Americans earlier in February, a maritime source says they left instructions: kill the hostages if we do not come back from negotiations.
Doesn't sound like this is the pirate's word versus the Navy's.. Sounds more like a whistle-blower to me..
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:29   #28
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

In such case I foolishly put myself in stoopid situation like this and John Mclane or John Rambo are not available, I'd prefer the US Navy make my attempted rescue.
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:30   #29
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

Its ridiculous.
All you lot bleat for more action and for the navy to come out shooting, and then when they do you cry like babies.

Those people lives were forfeit BEFORE the pirates even saw the yacht.

Go into those waters and its Volenti Non Fit Injuria.

And if people are part of the illiterate portion of the world go look that term up and work it out.
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Old 27-02-2011, 07:31   #30
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Re: New story re Quest negotiations!

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... I'd prefer the US Navy make my attempted rescue.
Over whom?
Based upon past performance, I might choose the Israeli Special Forces, myself.
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