New cruising restrictions in Georgia (USA)

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

I think it is already quite clear that the places where overboard discharge of wastes IS a problem is at moorages and anchorages where there are significant concentrations of vessels and poor water circulation. If you are arguing for unrestricted overboard discharge of sewage from boats into coastal and freshwaters of the United States, you and I are definitely on opposite sides.

I didn't argue that, and there is no way what I said could be construed as that.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

Letsget, I believe what you're talking about is simple (or not so simple) influence peddling, AKA corruption. Unfortunately ubiquitous.

As to the beachfront property, the public use will likely win out, but only for use up to the mean high tide mark. That's been adjudicated more than once, in places like Malibu, parts of New York state, etc. I'd be very surprised if they were able to gain access beyond that.

They aren't "gaining access". They are arguing for access to that which the public has ALWAYS had unrestricted access to, until recently when owners decided that they could block the public from beaches adjacent to their property.

[a64pilot]

You know, go to almost any beach that has high end Hotels or Condo’s, they will come out and set up chairs and tables up to the waterline, and if you try to set your towel there, Someone will tell you to leave, it’s a “private beach”
I know, I have seen it in Sarasota.

No, they don’t have the right, but I bet you will still be arrested for something if you protest.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You know, go to almost any beach that has high end Hotels or Condo’s, they will come out and set up chairs and tables up to the waterline, and if you try to set your towel there, Someone will tell you to leave, it’s a “private beach”
I know, I have seen it in Sarasota.

No, they don’t have the right, but I bet you will still be arrested for something if you protest.

When I was a teenager, we drove down to Ft. Lauderdale, not a big trip since we lived in S. FLA but we headed down there to just go to a different beach.

There were three of us and we went to a beach next to an expensive hotel. It was not long before the hotel security was telling us to move on. We told him to bugger off, in a polite manner, since we were below the high water line and I don't think we were even on the hotel property if we above the high tide line. He did leave and we had no more problems with him.

We were just enjoying the beach and not being a problem in any way. No boom box and I don't think we even had beer.

Later,
Dan

[Davy J]

It seems the real problem here, is that the populace, in most states, are not monitoring their "legislative sessions". Legislators are running amuck without any input or resistance, the "public" is asleep at the wheel". Too busy watching American Idol, Dancing with the stars, or Hell's Kitchen.

Where was the "outcry" when these bills were being introduced............

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Davy J

Where was the "outcry" when these bills were being introduced............

That is indeed what is suspicious, how is it Boat US and others didn’t say a word? I can only assume Ga got it through without anyone finding out, which is sort of curious, how did they do that?

Apparently it’s already done? But soon there is a meeting to discuss it? What’s to discuss, it passed?

[Sailshabby]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The reason stated and the excuse is waste discharge, as a long time Ga resident, I can assure you that has nothing to do with it. (in my opinion)
If waste discharge was the concern, that starts with water quality studies that you have done so your complaint has teeth, I don’t believe that was done here.
It’s all about I don’t want those boats in my backyard spoiling the view, and you know those people are up to something, cooking meth or lord only knows what, we don’t want that in our neighborhood.
We don’t let them set up trashy RV parks alongside of the road, why do we let them in our backyards?

So the authorities think they can dictate where I cook my meth?? What’s this country coming to? 😂

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Davy J

It seems the real problem here, is that the populace, in most states, are not monitoring their "legislative sessions". Legislators are running amuck without any input or resistance, the "public" is asleep at the wheel". Too busy watching American Idol, Dancing with the stars, or Hell's Kitchen.

Where was the "outcry" when these bills were being introduced............

Or maybe there was some pushback, but legislators got duped by unsubstantiated arguments such as this:

Originally Posted by Dooglas

I think it is already quite clear that the places where overboard discharge of wastes IS a problem is at moorages and anchorages where there are significant concentrations of vessels and poor water circulation.

Or the legislators were afraid that thoughtful attempts to fairly consider both sides of the issue would be met with accusations of not caring about the environment such as this:

If you are arguing for unrestricted overboard discharge of sewage from boats into coastal and freshwaters of the United States, you and I are definitely on opposite sides.

This seems to be the way it goes these days in the US, with people believing they are on "opposite sides" of others who have legitimate concerns about the often unintended if not unforeseen consequences of restrictive actions.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

If a boat has people on it and hasn't moved in a week or more, it's a pretty safe bet that they're discharging illegally.

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

a64, I suspect you're right about the motivation behind this, unfortunately. True, a composting head would be the exception to my assertion, but as you said, easy enough to verify.

Or a Lectra-San (assuming the vessel is not anchored in a NDZ). Or using shore facilities.

Looks to me like yet another solution to a problem that may not exist.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

So the current laws aren’t being enforced, you think new, more restrictive ones are what we need?
See, I’d say the ones you have would work if they were enforced.

Well, I'd say they would as well. And I am not saying Oregon needs a more restrictive anchoring law. The situation in Georgia, however, is that they did not already have the kind of anchoring restriction I described above. Pass a reasonable set of rules, and enforce those rules - that is my point of view.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by GordMay

FWIW: Kathy Bohanan Enzerink (published in “All At Sea”) certainly has a different (from the majority opinion expressed on CF) view of the new law.
"Georgia Welcomes Liveaboard Boaters (with permit)" ➥ https://www.allatsea.net/georgia-wel...oaters-permit/

This article says the 30-day restriction (per year) for liveaboards was enacted in 1992, and that it applies to all liveaboards, whether anchored or docked. The new regulation allows extensions only for those who are docked, but only at marinas with "certified" pump-out facilities, and only by application/receipt of a permit.

"In 1992, rules were put in place limiting a liveaboard boater to 30 days per calendar year. Boaters have obeyed the rule and ignored the rule, and some Intracoastal Waterway transients have avoided Georgia altogether.

Effective this past January 1, boaters wishing to stay aboard their vessels in Georgia waters more than the 30 calendar days per year can do so legally…sort of. As long as the boat owner obtains a permit issued by the Georgia State Department of Natural Resources and the vessel is docked at an approved marina with a certified pump-out system, everyone is happy. However, liveaboard vessels at anchor and mooring balls cannot take advantage of the new Rule."

The thread discussion has almost exclusively been focused on anchoring (and mooring) restrictions. If the claimed impetus of these regs is primarily pollution prevention, then it's unclear why liveaboards staying at marinas with pump-out facilities require a permit to stay past 30 days. Don't practically all marinas have shore-side bathroom facilities? Sure, keep pump-out records, put the green twist-tie seals on everyone's discharge thru-hulls, test the surrounding waters, whatever. But why restrict non-polluting liveaboard boats at marinas or at anchor who can demonstrate they are complying with discharge rules by using the pump-outs or other lawful means? Derelict, abandoned or sunken boats, or those illegally discharging sewage? Sure, but there are remedies that fall well short of restricting law-abiding, transient cruisers with well-found vessels (who are supporting the local economy).

But then the article also states that only 5 out of the 30 marinas in the state actually have such certified pump-out facilities. If true, then the only people who might be "happy" are the owners & operators of those few marinas (maybe this is why Mr. Ferguson is smiling so enthusiastically??) Otherwise, I don't see how Ga. is "welcoming" towards liveaboard boaters, or why the majority of people on this thread who oppose it wouldn't simply reflect the opinion of a strong majority of cruisers generally. In other words, the title (if not some of the content) of the article is quite obviously misleading, whether you share the views of the majority of those posting or not.

[Sojourner]

Ok so I don't live in the states anymore, but my thought is this: It seems obvious that the target of this is the boated-homeless kinda like off Sausalito CA. We can all understand it from all sides.... if you had a million dollar waterfront house in GA, you wouldn't want fifty derelict boats camped out there moldering away for years. But I'm sure you wouldn't mind a well-kempt sailboat stopping offshore for a night or two either. Conversely, if you were more or less in a financial state that put you close to being homeless, I bet all of us would be living on our boats anchored off rather than in a weekly motel or worse.

The probability is that this law will be enforced on the rundown permanent vessels and for the rest of us in seaworthy vessels that actually move, the coasties, as someone else pointed out, would likely give you a wave or a 'verbal warning' to not overstay. Which is good. But also a bit sad. I'm all over the place today!

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

Ok so I don't live in the states anymore, but my thought is this: It seems obvious that the target of this is the boated-homeless kinda like off Sausalito CA. We can all understand it from all sides.... if you had a million dollar waterfront house in GA, you wouldn't want fifty derelict boats camped out there moldering away for years. But I'm sure you wouldn't mind a well-kempt sailboat stopping offshore for a night or two either. Conversely, if you were more or less in a financial state that put you close to being homeless, I bet all of us would be living on our boats anchored off rather than in a weekly motel or worse.

The probability is that this law will be enforced on the rundown permanent vessels and for the rest of us in seaworthy vessels that actually move, the coasties, as someone else pointed out, would likely give you a wave or a 'verbal warning' to not overstay. Which is good. But also a bit sad. I'm all over the place today!

You know, that’s what I have noticed in most cases. If you are truly cruising, even if you stay for a month, the people enforcing the law are selective about it.

Years ago, back in Florida when they had banned anchoring in many places, I remember the Miami Beach police came up to me. The minute I drop the anchor. They told me about the short stay. I think it was a week or a few days. And they rattled off the ordinance and all of that. Then they said to me, "This really isn’t for people like you. It’s for people like them. And they pointed to a derelict.". I think I stayed about a month. And they never came back over. Then I left without incident.

The enforcers know who is up to no good in the Anchorage. They see them every day. So it gives them a weapon to use, but they don’t use it on everyone. Just keep your boat in good condition, be presentable, and you never run into any of these laws. They may be on the books, but they are not enforced against people who fit their idea of a desirable boat and crew.

Same goes all over the place.

I mean, it’s not that different from going through customs. They certainly profile you. If you fit the good guy profile, it’s nothing but a formality.

[SailFastTri]

I have read the first page of this thread and reminded myself of an article I recently read about how to stop dwelling on things that bother you. The article can be summed up in this one quote: “Am I ruminating or problem-solving?"
If you're dwelling on the problem, you're ruminating. If you're actively looking for solutions, you're problem-solving.
Problem-solving can help you move forward. But ruminating will hold you back. If you're ruminating, you need to change the channel.”

Here’s the link for the article to give credit where it’s due: https://www.inc.com/amy-morin/how-to...ring-you.html?

Thank-you to the OP for making us aware of this new law. It will be interesting to find out how it gets implemented.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

These aren't cruising restrictions, these are camping out on the water in Georgia for extended periods restrictions. Depending on how you cruise and what you expect, this may be a plus or a minus for your cruising experience. On the water squatters and people who violate no discharge rules do not improve my cruising experience. The fact that some people ignore virtually all on the water rules is making most jurisdictions more restrictive. And who do you have to thank for that? Mostly irresponsible boaters, I'd say.

It's the old "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" issue. I suspect they are after the clampets on the water as you suggest that they are targeting and the rules inadvertently caught cruisers.

I wonder how much of this is Florida pushing them out, so they've moved north. New England and PNW don't get the issue as winter takes care of the problem.

Of course, it's pretty easy to fabricate a pumpout log....just note in the logbook that you went out the bay to the 3 mile limit and dumped then returned...unless they have been tracking your position, pretty hard to prove otherwise (hint, turn off the AIS for a few hours to match the log). This is for legitimate cruisers who have functional boats. For floating derelicts, this doesn't work so well...but if your boat looks functional and you aren't staying in place for months, they probably won't even ask you about it.

I'm also sure they won't be doing much, if any, enforcement in marinas. Marina owners are big tax payers...you don't mess with that.