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Old 30-08-2012, 15:44   #61
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

Not to offend; but the difference here is between cruising and traveling and squatting and mooching.

Those of us that hope to travel and sail for the next 30-40 years are very concerned about those currently squatting and mooching ruining everything well into the future.

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Old 30-08-2012, 15:54   #62
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

Quote:
Those of us that hope to travel and sail for the next 30-40 years are very concerned about those currently squatting and mooching ruining everything well into the future.
The problem is that 90% of the problem is local "boaters" and local landowners leaving boats in harbors as free storage or a way to get rid of them. The laws being passed on the other hand almost completely ignore these problems, and instead target transient boaters who are not the problem. These Pilot Program laws will be looked at in 2014 as examples of what laws could be instituted statewide. The idea was to allow localities to experiment and see what works to prevent the "problem," whatever it is perceived to be. Unfortunately, in some places like Marathon, one of the "problems" is that their mooring field is losing money and needs periodic infusions of cash from the county to keep running. So, they are trying to drum up business by making it unpleasant and difficult to anchor out. Unfortunately, they discovered the perfect solution by making the daily fee at the dinghy dock the same price as renting a mooring, which includes the dinghy dock.
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Old 30-08-2012, 16:19   #63
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

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Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
The problem is that 90% of the problem is local "boaters" and local landowners leaving boats in harbors as free storage or a way to get rid of them. The laws being passed on the other hand almost completely ignore these problems, and instead target transient boaters who are not the problem. These Pilot Program laws will be looked at in 2014 as examples of what laws could be instituted statewide. The idea was to allow localities to experiment and see what works to prevent the "problem," whatever it is perceived to be. Unfortunately, in some places like Marathon, one of the "problems" is that their mooring field is losing money and needs periodic infusions of cash from the county to keep running. So, they are trying to drum up business by making it unpleasant and difficult to anchor out. Unfortunately, they discovered the perfect solution by making the daily fee at the dinghy dock the same price as renting a mooring, which includes the dinghy dock.
So local boaters are exempt from the new rules? I missed that.

Monroe County infuses money into the City of Marathon mooring field?

I'm a transient boater in all these areas except St. Augustine. None of the rules will affect my cruising at all.
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Old 30-08-2012, 16:45   #64
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

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So local boaters are exempt from the new rules? I missed that.

Monroe County infuses money into the City of Marathon mooring field?

I'm a transient boater in all these areas except St. Augustine. None of the rules will affect my cruising at all.
Most of the derelict and problem boats are owned by locals or even commercial operators. The Keys has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars salvaging these derelicts after storms, and nearly none of them were transient boaters. Someone can plop down some old piece of junk as a mooring, put their piece of junk boat on it that they intend to fix up some day, and just leave it there and it counts as a "stored" boat or something so it isn't subject to the rules on how many days you can anchor, how many days before you have to prove you are pumping out, etc. Most areas are not even enforcing registration rules on these boats, which are the majority of what they refer to as derelicts. Yes, there are some people with serious mental, health, and financial problems living on a few of these derelicts, but again they are locals that would be living under a park bench if they didn't have their pile of junk to sleep on. They will be subject to some of these rules, but kick them off their boats and they will simply be sleeping under the park bench next week. They aren't boaters.

Yes, I can't quickly find the links, but Marathon was losing hundreds of thousands of $$ on its marina, and was only able to keep it open last fall with another infusion of cash from the county. They have had several infusions over the years. Over 70 moorings were unuseable for a goodly portion of last year, and I believe a fair number may yet be unrepaired. They didn't have the money to fix them, so instead they just prevented people from anchoring over a good portion of the harbor. Their solution was to raise the dinghy dock fee to the point that it costs as much to anchor as it does to pick up a mooring.

And, there was already a derelict vessel program in place that was supposed to take care of the problems. It is actually well and professionally designed by the FWC, but was hardly ever enforced. It instituted commonsense rules and protocols for dealing with real derelict boats.
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Old 30-08-2012, 17:30   #65
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

We're getting into a different subject, but, "Dirt Bag Boats"! They have always been a problem in the Keys, and IMO brought far more heat on those with humble but "real" cruising boats. ANY boater can tell the two apart, but landside home owners, apparently can not. The first time I lived on the hook in Key West, was on a little Wharram 23, in the mid 70s... but it was at least a "real boat", not a floating barge full of junk, anchored with 1/4" ski rope! The same dirt bag boat dwellers, would trash Christmas Tree Island, even set it on FIRE! Who got the blame? The boating community as a whole. Its wrong, but people do generalize.

There are also "derelict boats" just waiting to break free in a storm, as well as those that are lived on, but almost grown to the bottom. They have no means of propulsion, and haven't moved in 15 years. They are or "were", a large part of the problem. (Haven't been there lately, mind you)... It wasn't so much the sewerage, it was the regularity with which they would sink in a minor storm, and become a hazard to navigation, until the State removed it, 15 years later.

Draconian rules, like Boot Key's harbor master not allowing a mooring field liveaboard to go visit family at Christmas, (IF it means being off of the boat for more than 24 hours), is not the answer either. That's ridiculous!

There needs to be common sense rules, and reasonable enforcement of them. For one thing, IF one's boat sinks in the Keys, the owner (IF you can find them), should be required to re-float and remove the wreck. This stipulation might go a long way...

M.
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Old 31-08-2012, 08:12   #66
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

Just for kicks I looked up the information on the most recent infusion of cash needed to keep the mooring field in operation in Marathon (see below). This is one reason they are trying to discourage anchoring--they need more paying customers on the moorings!

Marina gets $91K
County acquiesces, gives city disputed funds for repairs
BY TIMOTHY O'HARA Citizen Staff
tohara@keysnews.com
Monroe County has agreed to give Marathon $50,000 more in boater improvement funds to repair the city marina, but county commissioners still questioned whether that money should be used to subsidize such "pay" mooring fields.
The county, which previously had given the city $41,342 for completed maintenance work at the Marathon City Marina in Boot Key Harbor, had threatened to rescind another $50,000 it promised for work not yet completed.
Commissioner Sylvia Murphy said the funds, generated by boater registration fees, should not be used for pay mooring field maintenance, and Commissioner Heather Carruthers questioned why the city did not have a fund set aside for such work.
"I don't want us to be the sole provider of maintenance," Carruthers said at the commission meeting Wednesday.
Commissioners said they would rather see the money go toward boat ramps, installing or repairing old channel markers, and creating new managed mooring fields. They argue that would help solve the Florida Keys' derelict vessel problem, on which the county spent $273,000 last year removing abandoned boats.
The $91,342 is a much greater allocation of boater improvement funds than what Marathon typically has received in the past -- $17,243 in 2008, $22,400 in 2009 and $29,832 in 2010, records show. By comparison, Key West received $35,975 this year and Key Colony Beach received $1,538.
Marathon initially requested $150,000 to replace mooring balls and make other repairs. Marina managers inspected all 226 mooring balls in December 2010 and found that many had worn out faster than expected, Marathon Planning Director George Garrett said Wednesday.
Marathon Ports Director Richard Tanner has said that some moorings showed "accelerated wear" of up to 40 percent, meaning they were almost halfway worn through, leaving 30 at risk of being shut down if not repaired. Constant use was the most obvious reason suspected for the wear.
The city has been replacing parts on the 226 moorings as needed, but the inventory of parts is almost gone.
tohara@keysnews.com
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Old 31-08-2012, 08:33   #67
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

since this means the local taxpayers are making up the difference you can easliy figure out what the local non boaters think of this whole thing!

and ............ $273,000 last year in costs to remove abandoned boats

if I was a local taxpayer there I wouldn't be losing any sleep over boater's lost "freedom rights"
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Old 31-08-2012, 10:29   #68
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

Rights are guaranteed regardless of someone's opinion and cannot be taken away.

I don't believe anchoring is a right but is a freedom guaranteed by law.

We are in a hateful trend in America and even the world at large to hurt "them". It's sort of sad.
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Old 31-08-2012, 11:22   #69
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

a guy here in Tea party central tried that defense in court. he said he believed that the constitution guaranteed him the right to anchor. personally not sure that is in there anywhere, but I believe the judge continued the case so the guy could come up with a better argument.

The biggest issue we have here is the HUGE area the city stole from the public put mooring into salt run. I guess there used to be a lot of derelict boats there, but now just empty mooring with rusting shackles, etc. the field is pretty new, but I doubt will be self sustaining. Especially as we have followed the Marthon model of lots of fancy new boats to "service" the morning field. Any actual work of course is done by contractors.

just more forced wealth transfer.
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Old 31-08-2012, 11:22   #70
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

Yes, it's interesting that Marathon is operating in the red, it's the most expensive mooring field that I frequent @ $22/night. Wonder if the original equipment was inferior? But, it is probably the best run mooring field I've used, nice moorings, very friendly/responsive staff, and nice amenities. Key West moorings are simply in a bad location, more open to weather plus long unpleasant dinghy rides. Ft. Myers Beach is nice also. I'm looking forward to the new Sarasota moorings.

If one lived thru all that has happened in the last 8-10 years around Florida, I think they would have to agree the current (5) Pilot Programs are not all that bad. Prior to new state legislation, each municipality was passing their own egregious ordinances. That was challenged (actually by a friend/neighbor of mine) and the state FWC proposed new legislation. Of course, like everything, it was compromised down to setting up these (5) Pilot Programs that expire in 2014 (along with all rules and enforcements) when discussion around what works and what doesn't will be sought.

IMO, the rules in the Pilot areas are not that bad. I have never been to St. Augustine, but the complaint there is the size of the 'no anchor' area around the mooring field. I can't comment on that.

The area complained about in this thread at St. Pete is Vinoy Basin. Well they are installing a mooring field, hence you can't anchor there anymore. Why is that bad? It's kind of like the field you used to park your car in for free and now there is a paved parking lot there that charges for parking. It's called progress, Luddites, live with it.

The buffer zone around the new mooring field in Sarasota is something like 100-150', that's bad how?

The (2) no anchor areas around Key West look very shallow on the charts, hence I wouldn't be interested in them anyway. I never even realized boats anchored in those areas and I've been to Key West dozens of times.

Boot Key Harbor buffer around the mooring field is 50', that's bad how? If you don't like pump out the rules in BKH, anchor out on the west side and use one of the marina docks over there.

It's been a while since I looked at Stuart/Martin County plan, but IIRC, it's not egregious.

As far dumping raw sewage? Florida State Law says there is no dumping of raw sewage in State Waters, which extend to 3 miles on the Atlantic side and 9 miles on the Gulf Side. Since I have a MSD 3, I don't know how this law affects MSD 1 & 2.

There is also Federal EPA rules that designate a no-discharge zones in Destin Harbor, City of Key West Waters, and State waters within the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary. This rule includes all discharges, even gray water. That's a tough one to meet for those of us without gray water holding tanks. I've never heard of any enforcement of this rule on a recreational boat.

It is very obvious to the most simply person that the current way LEO's enforce no dumping is completely ridiculous. LEO within 100 feet of a boat is probably the only time Y valves get closed. If you've ever spent time at anchor on the west side of Flemming Key or around Wisteria Island, it doesn't take to much to calculate which boats are dumping raw sewage. When the anchor rode is 10 times the size it should be covered with growth, that vessel hasn't moved for while. Unless the inhabitants have extremely large body cavities, it's obvious what is happening. The pumpout every 10 days is very reasonable, in fact too generous as most boats probably don't have 10 days worth of holding tank (my boat doesn't).

Yeah, it's always easy to point fingers at the next guy. I believe it's true that landlubbers are causing more water pollution than boaters, even the boaters with open Y valves around Key West. But guess what, there is a law, you either follow it or take your chances at getting caught. "But officer, a car passed me a ways back and he was going a lot faster than me!" Come on all you old curmudgeons, grow up!

I don't cherish the thought of possibly having to dive under my boat to fix a problem while anchored around Key West with the idea the guy next me hasn't closed the Y valve in months. I'm sure there will be arbitrage around the 10 day pumpout, like selling of receipts on the streets in Key West, but hopefully that will be a bigger pain than just following the rules.

Florida has ~1200 miles of tidal shoreline, if you don't like the rules at one of the (5) Pilot areas, move along, there are much better anchorages elsewhere.
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Old 31-08-2012, 12:03   #71
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

Watch out when signing those two-page mooring contracts they require in Florida. Many of them make you sign away the right for your insurance company to sue the mooring owner if something fails. This might very well invalidate your insurance, according to BoatUS.

Here's a quote from the linked piece:

Quote:
"The marina knows that every boat policy has language basically saying if the insured does anything to mess up the insurance company’s rights to recover the loss, then coverage from the policy is void,” says Nolan. “So when the marina damages your boat, the insured could be the only one without protection!”
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Old 31-08-2012, 12:34   #72
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

IANAL, but it sounds odd to me that I can sign away a third parties rights, my insurance company. I think here is a bit of FUD in that article. Bottom line is that it will come down to which party has more lawyer money, the insurance company or the marina.

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Old 31-08-2012, 13:02   #73
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

Here's the language in Marathon's mooring agreement. Check with your insurance company and see what they think of it: From here

Quote:
RELEASE OF LIABILITY AND INDEMNITY: Licensee, on his/her own behalf and on behalf of his/her executors, agents, heirs,
personal representatives, and assigns and each of them, hereby expressly releases and forever discharges the City of Marathon, and
its agents, employees, officials and legal representatives, in both their official and individual capacities, as well as their successors and
assigns (collectively referred to as the “Marina”) from any and all claims, actions, demands and causes of action in law or in equity
for any and all liability for loss (including loss of life), or damages to person or property, including, but not limited to, damages caused
by the Marina’s own negligence, fire, theft, vandalism, wind storm, high or low waters, hail, rain, ice, collision or accident, any other
Act of God, or the acts of third parties, whether negligent or intentional. Licensee shall be liable to the Marina for any personal
injury, loss of life, or property damage caused by Licensee or on behalf of Licensee or by Licensee’s agents, servants, or invitees.
Licensee further agrees to defend, indemnify, and hold the Marina harmless from any loss, cost, expense, claim or liability, including
attorney’s fees and costs of litigation and appeal, for any and all personal injury, loss of life, and property damage related in any way
to Licensee’s actions or property, regardless of the Marina’s negligence. This paragraph shall survive the expiration or termination
of this agreement.
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Old 31-08-2012, 13:27   #74
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

like anyone is going to read that except another lawyer

I also doubt you can sign away your rights for negligence and really doubt you can sign away the insurance company's right no matter that agreement says
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Old 31-08-2012, 13:27   #75
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

From my Jackline policy.

Quote:
2.17 Subrogation
If we pay for a loss under this policy, then we shall be subrogated to any right which any insured might have to be paid by
another person for such loss. You and all insureds shall preserve, both before and after the issuance of this policy and before
and after a loss, the right to such other payment and shall cooperate with us in our pursuit of such payment. Nevertheless, the
execution of a moorage or storage contract for the Vessel which includes a hold harmless agreement shall not be construed to
be a breach of the conditions of this clause.
I think that says that I can't sign away their rights but if I do, the contract is not breached, and they can sue to recover their loss. I could be wrong but I'm not going to worry about it. I do have to tie up to a marina from time to time and they all have agreements that holding the marina harmless.

John
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