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Old 30-08-2012, 07:36   #46
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

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It's hard to see the negative here.
I personally still believe in the presumption of innocence and in the right to privacy. This has nothing to do with pollution--every single study indicates the sources are from land. If the governments there were honest and wanted to do something about this they would be flushing dye tablets down toilets ashore, and forcing people to upgrade their septic systems. However, land people won't put up with such intrusions. Why should boaters? Are we second-class citizens?
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Old 30-08-2012, 08:08   #47
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

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I personally still believe in the presumption of innocence and in the right to privacy. This has nothing to do with pollution--every single study indicates the sources are from land. If the governments there were honest and wanted to do something about this they would be flushing dye tablets down toilets ashore, and forcing people to upgrade their septic systems. However, land people won't put up with such intrusions. Why should boaters? Are we second-class citizens?
Hmm, the Keys don't have septic systems, nor does the barrier island I live on. The governments abolished them over the last couple of decades (at great cost to the homeowners).

I simply don't believe that every boater follows the rules, nor common sense.
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Old 30-08-2012, 08:11   #48
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

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Hmm, the Keys don't have septic systems, nor does the barrier island I live on. The governments abolished them over the last couple of decades (at great cost to the homeowners).

I simply don't believe that every boater follows the rules, nor common sense.
I believe that most of Marathon was just converted to a sewer system within the past couple of years not decades.
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Old 30-08-2012, 08:21   #49
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

Owners of composting heads provide a photo of themselves disposing of compost. Or, just provide the compost. "Here it is, officer; be a good chap and drop it in the eco-bin when you get ashore...."
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Old 30-08-2012, 08:21   #50
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

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I believe that most of Marathon was just converted to a sewer system within the past couple of years not decades.
The Monroe County government started working on it in 1991....

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/south/Key...A_04-22-08.pdf
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Old 30-08-2012, 08:28   #51
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

As of earlier this year only 40% of Marathon was connected to the wastewater system. In any case, even these wastewater systems are considered grossly inadequate according to many studies--do some Googling. One way they get rid of the wastewater is to inject it deep underground. Even ignoring the effluent from land-based toilets, the run-off from land is considered a major source of pollution. It dwarfs anything from boats, which is actually unmeasureable. Be that as it may, there are already federal and state laws on the books against boat pollution. Adding a proof of pumpout is just a way to hassle boaters. There needs to be one uniform set of laws that pertain throughout the state. Right now you could arrive in the Keys from someplace like Miami, where there is no proof of pumpout required, and within ten days you might be boarded and fined for not having the proof of pumpout.
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Old 30-08-2012, 08:33   #52
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

Picking on the boaters keeps people busy, gives the impression something is being done, deflects from other embarrassing problems and is a source of revenue. Just like the antifoul issue, amongst others...
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Old 30-08-2012, 08:39   #53
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

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Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
I personally still believe in the presumption of innocence and in the right to privacy. This has nothing to do with pollution--every single study indicates the sources are from land. If the governments there were honest and wanted to do something about this they would be flushing dye tablets down toilets ashore, and forcing people to upgrade their septic systems. However, land people won't put up with such intrusions. Why should boaters? Are we second-class citizens?
Good post... I agree with Kettlewell!

I have been an environmentalist all of my life, and IMO... his position is absolutely true! It has been proven to be so.

When they were raising hell in Key West, 25 years ago, about the bacteria count in the water... and pointing their fingers at <100 anchored out boaters as the culprits, they found the problem existed ONLY on the south side of the island, where there WERE NO BOATERS ANCHORED OUT. That was the side with the town's sewer pipe! SURPRISE...

Locals that swam on that side, myself included, got a skin fungus called locally, "the Key West Crud". It went away with treatment, but the point is, 99.9% of the "nutrients" and "contaminates" of all kinds, in the water, come from LAND BASED SOURCES. These laws against boaters might well apply to huge "cattle boats", and certainly to all shipping, and commercial boats with large crews, but picking on the casual cruiser, is a misplaced and incredibly "ignorant" solution... NOT!

We have a major climate crisis on our hands, but it is still irrational to point our fingers, for example, toward stock car racers that get 5 MPG, and have no pollution controls on their vehicles. Sure, they don't comply, but so what. They contribute .0000000001% to the problem.

First and foremost, we need to limit nutrients and all pollution of ALL kinds... from: The 99.9% "land side" sewage, (that spills in the millions of gallons nationwide, and is otherwise universally UNDER treated), factory farming of meat, agriculture too near our waterways, golf courses, (A BIG polluter of Boot Key Hbr), all residential lawns that (fertilize or water), all industry, cars & homes, garbage, street runoff, ETC.

Picking on the relative handful of anchored out "real" cruising boaters, will NOT help the problem in any measurable way. Certainly, in enclosed marina basins and stagnant waterways, a holding tank is a good idea, but in the case of anchoring in areas getting flushed out to sea twice daily... their contribution, compared to the municipalities serving tens of thousands, is irreverent.

These legislators need to get real, and stop pandering to the rich snobs with waterfront property, who create the issue. IMO, it is often out of the belief that: "They paid a lot for this place, and should own the view"...

We need to stand up for our anchoring rights, before they go away.

M.

This is where the main " Christmas Tree Island" anchorage was, 2 miles out from Key West. It was in water so wide you could see to the horizon in 3 directions. THIS is where "they said" that it was the "boaters" creating the problem, 6 miles away, on the other side of Key West, right next to the town sewer pipe.
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Old 30-08-2012, 09:06   #54
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

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I believe that most of Marathon was just converted to a sewer system within the past couple of years not decades.
I lived in Boot Key Hbr for two years, '00 & '01, and yes, I did use my holding tank. Still, if you circumnavigated the harbor in your dinghy, (20' from the sea wall), you would see & smell an 8" wide pipe about every 100', spewing shitwater into the harbor! It was pretty easy to tell how "treated" it was. It was NOT "Shinola"...

It was from the resort and condo dwellers miniature little "sort of" treatment plants, that were mostly ineffective. Any one of these hundreds of pipes, contributed more than all of the boaters combined. Yet, politicians like Frank Greenman started a vendetta against all Boot Key boaters, claiming they should be run out.

Now, in 2012, the "powers that be" won. Only the rich can be there. The mooring solution, only works for monohulls btw., or if multihulls, they must be large production/FRP cats. Trimarans, that are made of plywood (with only 1/32" of glass on the wings), get beat to death from the mooring ball, when the boat runs over it in a calm or wind shift. This happens all the time!

Many surrounding canals were the same story as Boot Key Harbor, btw... Obviously, I don't live in the Keys any more.

M.
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Old 30-08-2012, 09:10   #55
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

town sewer pipes play a big role in dissing boaters due to effluent--is PRESUMED that effluent is coming from the 2-20 boats parked there---but in reality the problem is not the boats--as we well know. is the city councils and others PRESUMING and attacking the lil guy on the basis of that pollution--it ALL comes from the boats--didnt you know that?? all 410,000 gallons pouring out of coronado , kali and culverts made before sewer systems were dreamed up, and undersized systems for the populace...but dont confuse the citizens with facts--is we the boaters who caused everything. especially those of us living and cruising aboard.

many municipalities believe is the boaters and will make good and sure we are removed from their equation. then mebbe they will find someone else to blame their effluent on----anchoring laws are only th e beginning of what is to come.

good luck with your adventure in legalities with anchoring and moorings--it didnt go well in sd.....despite boater outcries, anchorages were closed in sd and only allowed for 72 hour use. citations in excess of 270 dollars are given out to violators, even if only 10 mins late for departure, for any reason-- hard starting engines, dead batteries, whatever--does not cut it with the harbies--they will ticket. you will go to court. all this does is restrict the traffic of cruisers.
but then we do not contribute enough to the economy for us to be of value.
we also, single-handedly, pollute every body of water we touch--even if we arent doing the polluting--it is us. go figger. (question--how is it that 30 boats on a mooring field are the only cause of 410,000 gallons of effluent in a huge bay----)
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Old 30-08-2012, 09:17   #56
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

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. Right now you could arrive in the Keys from someplace like Miami, where there is no proof of pumpout required, and within ten days you might be boarded and fined for not having the proof of pumpout.
Florida is looking worse, and worse. I'm in Texas, and plan on going through Florida on my way to the Bahamas...SO I have to be worried about...
1. Officials stopping me, and boarding me to put dye in my tanks, even though I will be spending most of my time 3 miles offshore.
2. I have to give proof of pumpout, (having electrosan no defense???), if I dump 3 miles out how do I prove THAT?
3. Speeding and open container laws, (half a bottle of rum in fridge in cabin?)
4. MUST be sure both boat, and dinghy are registered in state if I take more than 30 days to cross, (Federal documentation or that I'm not moving there no matter).
5. And NOW I have to find a mooring field and PAY each time I stop, or face additioanl fines.


Going south through Mexico is looking better and better, I'll take my chances with the drug runners, at least THEY won't confiscate my boat.


As far as compairing this to cars, if someone handed you an illegal parking ticket everytime you stopped at a red light, you might also be annoyed.
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Old 30-08-2012, 09:28   #57
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

Open container laws??? What?
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Old 30-08-2012, 12:47   #58
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

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Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
Florida is looking worse, and worse. I'm in Texas, and plan on going through Florida on my way to the Bahamas...SO I have to be worried about...
1. Officials stopping me, and boarding me to put dye in my tanks, even though I will be spending most of my time 3 miles offshore.
2. I have to give proof of pumpout, (having electrosan no defense???), if I dump 3 miles out how do I prove THAT?
3. Speeding and open container laws, (half a bottle of rum in fridge in cabin?)
4. MUST be sure both boat, and dinghy are registered in state if I take more than 30 days to cross, (Federal documentation or that I'm not moving there no matter).
5. And NOW I have to find a mooring field and PAY each time I stop, or face additioanl fines.


Going south through Mexico is looking better and better, I'll take my chances with the drug runners, at least THEY won't confiscate my boat.


As far as compairing this to cars, if someone handed you an illegal parking ticket everytime you stopped at a red light, you might also be annoyed.
Don't know where you get your information from. Apparently the grapevine is broken somewhere between Florida and Texas. Your statements are simply not my experience and I live and sail in Florida all year round. So far no one has "confiscated my boat"...

1> No one has ever boarded my vessels - under way - anchored - or in a marina - for any reason. I'm sure they do, but it has never happened to me. Your post sounds like law enforcement in Florida is constantly crashing onto people's boats in the middle of the night to check the head.

2> Maybe some marinas or local jurisdictions want to try to keep their harbor clean by asking you about your plumbing. No one has ever asked me except verbally during a voluntary CG safety inspection. They asked. I told them. That was it. They didn't look for themselves or even board the boat. I would get over it, and if your plumbing is that bad, yes, go through Mexico.

3> You are right. If you want to rip around in heavy displacement motorboats through shallow water waking other boats and running over manatees, please by all means go through Mexico. If you are even a marginally considerate boater, you will not find any speed limits onerous in Florida.

4> Could be. I do not know and I will admit it, although it sure won't take you more than 30 days to transit Florida on your way to the Bahamas - especially if as you say you are "spending most of my time 3 miles offshore".

5> I anchor overnight ALL THE TIME. I don't know why there is the impression that there are no places left in Florida where you can stop for the night for free when traveling here. Yes, there are places where you can't. But that does not mean that there are no places where you can.

I am not bashing anyone, but this stuff gets repeated over and over until it is taken as fact. I mean really... Mexico won't "confiscate your boat" but Florida will? And you would go through Mexico just to avoid being asked about your plumbing? Or so you can go any speed anywhere you want without being held responsible? Or because you have to plan your anchorages? Yes. Mexico does sound way better.
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Old 30-08-2012, 13:26   #59
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

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Don't know where you get your information from. Apparently the grapevine is broken somewhere between Florida and Texas. Your statements are simply not my experience and I live and sail in Florida all year round. So far no one has "confiscated my boat"...

1> No one has ever boarded my vessels - under way - anchored - or in a marina - for any reason. I'm sure they do, but it has never happened to me. Your post sounds like law enforcement in Florida is constantly crashing onto people's boats in the middle of the night to check the head.

2> Maybe some marinas or local jurisdictions want to try to keep their harbor clean by asking you about your plumbing. No one has ever asked me except verbally during a voluntary CG safety inspection. They asked. I told them. That was it. They didn't look for themselves or even board the boat. I would get over it, and if your plumbing is that bad, yes, go through Mexico.

3> You are right. If you want to rip around in heavy displacement motorboats through shallow water waking other boats and running over manatees, please by all means go through Mexico. If you are even a marginally considerate boater, you will not find any speed limits onerous in Florida.

4> Could be. I do not know and I will admit it, although it sure won't take you more than 30 days to transit Florida on your way to the Bahamas - especially if as you say you are "spending most of my time 3 miles offshore".

5> I anchor overnight ALL THE TIME. I don't know why there is the impression that there are no places left in Florida where you can stop for the night for free when traveling here. Yes, there are places where you can't. But that does not mean that there are no places where you can.

I am not bashing anyone, but this stuff gets repeated over and over until it is taken as fact. I mean really... Mexico won't "confiscate your boat" but Florida will? And you would go through Mexico just to avoid being asked about your plumbing? Or so you can go any speed anywhere you want without being held responsible? Or because you have to plan your anchorages? Yes. Mexico does sound way better.
Shhh! Dont' tell 'em, let chicken little scare 'em away, our favorite anchorages will be quieter!
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Old 30-08-2012, 14:58   #60
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Re: New Anchoring Regs In FL Keys Up For Public Comment.

this whole thread reminds of the saying "a bit*hing sailor is a happy sailor"

nice to see how happy people must be
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